THE WAIMANALO GULCH LANDFILL IN WEST OAHU HAS BEEN  OPERATING FOR 35 YEARS AND IS SLATED TO CLOSE IN 2028.

AFTER AN EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH, THE CITY ANNOUNCED A NEW  LANDFILL SITE JUST OUTSIDE OF WAHIAWA.

THE BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY IS AGAINST THE LOCATION BECAUSE  THE AGRICULTURAL LAND SITS ABOVE AN AQUIFER, BUT THE CITY  SAYS SAFEGUARDS TO PREVENT WATER CONTAMINATION WILL BE IN  PLACE.

SO, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

TONIGHT’S LIVE BROADCAST AND LIVESTREAM OF INSIGHTS ON PBS  HAWAI’I START NOW.

¶¶  ¶¶ ALOHA AND WELCOME TO INSIGHTS  ON PBS HAWAII.

I'M LAUREN DAY.

OAHU’S GARBAGE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE AND IN JUST A FEW  YEARS, IT WON’T BE GOING TO THE WAIMANALO GULCH LANDFILL.

THE CITY HAS UNTIL 2028 TO HAVE A NEW FACILITY UP AND  RUNNING TO REPLACE THE CURRENT KAPOLEI LOCATION.

AFTER YEARS OF STRUGGLING TO FIND A NEW SITE, THE CITY  ANNOUNCED THIS PAST DECEMBER ITS PROPOSED LOCATION IN AN  AREA NORTHWEST OF WAHIAWA.

THE AGRICULTURAL LAND IS OWNED BY  THE DOLE FOOD COMPANY.

ACCORDING TO THE BOARD OF  WATER, THE LAND IS SITUATED SOME 800‑FEET ABOVE  AN AQUIFER, SPARKING CONCERNS ABOUT POSSIBLE CONTAMINATION  TO OUR DRINKING WATER.

TWO BILLS INTRODUCED THIS  SESSION AT THE LEGISLATURE CALL FOR A BAN ON  LANDFILLS TO BE BUILT OVER FRESHWATER AQUIFERS.

SO, WHERE  DOES THAT LEAVE THE CITY IN THIS DIFFICULT DECISION?

WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR PARTICIPATION IN TONIGHT'S  SHOW.

YOU CAN EMAIL OR  CALL IN YOUR QUESTIONS.

AND YOU’LL FIND A LIVE STREAM OF  THIS PROGRAM AT PBSHAWAII.ORG AND THE PBS  HAWAII YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW, TO OUR GUESTS.

ROGER BABCOCK IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF  ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES FOR THE CITY AND COUNTY OF  HONOLULU.

HE PREVIOUSLY DIRECTED THE  CITY’S DEPARTMENT OF FACILITY MAINTENANCE AND HAS ALSO  TAUGHT CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING AT THE UNIVERSITY  OF HAWAII AT MANOA.

REPRESENTATIVE AMY PERRUSO  SERVES DISTRICT 46, WHICH COVERS A PORTION OF  WAIPIO ACRES TO MOKULEIA.

SHE’S THE VICE‑CHAIR OF THE  ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION COMMITTEE.

PRIOR TO  HER TIME AS A LAWMAKER, SHE WAS A SOCIAL STUDIES TEACHER  FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS.

WAYNE TANAKA IS THE CHAPTER  DIRECTOR FOR THE SIERRA CLUB OF HAWAII.

HE CAME TO THE SIERRA CLUB AFTER SERVING A DECADE IN THE  PUBLIC POLICY PROGRAM AT THE OFFICE OF HAWAIIAN AFFAIRS AND  IS ALSO A LICENSED ATTORNEY AND ENGINEER.

AND DR. AMARJIT SINGH HAS BEEN A PROFESSOR OF CIVIL,  ENVIRONMENTAL AND CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING AT  THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII AT MANOA FOR MORE THAN  THREE DECADES.

HE’S A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER  AND A FELLOW OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF CIVIL ENGINEERS.

>>Lauren: START WITH YOU.

PROPOSED WAHIAWA LOCATION.

WHERE DO WE STAND NOW?

UPDATE OUR VIEWERS WHAT IS HAPPENING   WITH THAT POTENTIAL PROPOSED NEW LANDFILL?

>> AS YOU KNOW PROPOSED THAT SITE NORTHWEST OF   WAHIAWA AS SITE THAT WOULD MEET THE REQUIREMENTS  FOR SITING A LANDFILL AND WE COULD SAFELY DO   THAT USING SAFEGUARDS AND RULE AN REGULATIONSES  ASSOCIATED WITH MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTELAND FILLS.

TWO BILLS IN LEGISLATURE  MAKE THAT SITE NOT USABLE.

LEGALLY.

SO SENATE BILL 438 AND HOUSE BILL 969.

REP MAY TALK MORE ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

IF ONE OF THOSE, SOME FINAL BILL PASSESES,   THAT SITE WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR US TO USE.

>>Lauren: STILL IN LIMBO NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION   JUST YET.

>> CORRECT.

>>Lauren: CAN YOU BACK UP AND EXPLAIN  WHY DID THAT WAHIAWA LOCATIONS MEET THE   REQUIREMENTS.

>> SURE.

CITY BEEN LOOKING FOR A NEW  LANDFILL SITE FOR MANY YEARS.

MOST RECENTLY HAD A LANDFILL, FORMED  LANDFILL ADVISORY COMMITTEE IN 2021.

MOST RECENTLY WORKED THROUGH 2022 MADE  RECOMMENDATION AND EVALUATED SIX SITES.

CENTRAL OAHU BETWEEN KUNIA AND HALEIWA AND  RANKING AND SCORING BASE ON A BUNCH OF CRITERIA.

THIS WAS ONE OF THE SIX SITE THAT  WE DETERMINED WOULD BE THE BEST,   MOST SUITABLE FOR THE NEXT LANDFILL.

>>Lauren: CAN YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT THE TWO   BILLS AND WHERE YOU STAND ON THEM?

>> SURE.

SO HOUSE BILL 969 INTRODUCED BY REPRESENTATIVE  QUINLAN, PROHIBIT SITING OF LANDFILL OVER AQUIFER.

AND SENATE BILL 438 WHICH WAS INTRODUCED  BY SENATOR DELA CRUZ WOULD PROHIBITED   SITING OF A LANDFILL OVER AQUIFER.

BUT ALSO, PROHIBIT THAT SAME SITING   ON ANY AGRICULTURAL LAND.

IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE,   IT INCLUDE THE BOTH A&B CLASS LANDS.

AND NOW, IT'S LIMITED TO A LANDS.

SO THOSE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT  ELEMENTS OF THOSE TWO BILLS.

>>Lauren: HOW DOES THE SIERRA CLUB OF  HAWAII FEEL ABOUT THE WAHIAWA LOCATION?

>> VERY CONCERNED.

THIS REALLY IS NOT JUST ABOUT OUR WATER   BUT IT'S ABOUT CHILDREN'S WATER AND GRANDCHILDREN  WATER AND KNOWING THAT ALL LANDFILLS EVEN MODERN   ONES ARE EXPECTED TO FAIL AT SOME POINT.

WE MAY BE BURDENING OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS   WITH ANOTHER RED HILL SITUATION WHERE  DRINKING WATER SUPPLY MAY BE COMPROMISED.

JUST TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT WHAT  IS GOING ON WITH CLIMATE AND WITH OUR PLANET,   SEE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTIONS IN RAINFALL.

BEST MOLDS IN INDICATE THAT AT MINIMUM   HAVE A 35% REDUCTION OF RAINFALL IN  THE WESTERN COAST OF THE ISLANDS.

AND SO REALLY, OUR KIDS GRANDKIDS ARE GOING TO  NEED AS MUCH WATER AS WE CAN PROTECT FOR THEM.

SO THIS IS REALLY GENERATIONAL KULEANA TO MAKE  SURE WE'RE THINKING LONGTERM GENERATIONALLY   AND ENSURING WE'RE NOT SELLING  OUT THE FUTURE WATER SECURITY.

>>Lauren: DIVE MORE INTO THIS AS WELL.

PROFESSOR MAYBE YOU CAN WEIGH IN   ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF WAHIAWA LOCATION.

ALSO CURIOUS IF FROM ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE,   IS THERE A WAY TO SAFELY HAVE  A LANDFILL ABOVE AN AQUIFER.

>> >> TOTALLY ASTONISHES ME THAT ANYONE WOULD EVER   EVEN THINK OF HAVING A LANDFILL ABOVE AN AQUIFER.

WITH ALL THE SKILL AND TALENT AT THE CITY,   IT'S ABSOLUTELY UNCALLED FOR TO EVEN  PROPOSE HAVING A LANDFILL ABOVE AN AQUIFER.

ALL LANDFILLS LEAK.

EXCEPT FAIRY TALE LANDFILLS.

AND WE DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES  WANT TO PLAY WITH THE LIVES AND HEALTH   OF THE PEOPLE OF THIS COMMUNITY.

SOMEBODY MUST HAVE A PLAN TO   REALLY HURT THE COMMUNITY.

MAYBE KILL A FEW PEOPLE.

AS IT IS, RATES OF CANCER ARE SO VERY HIGH.

THIS WHOLE PROPOSAL IS TOTALLY UNCONSCIONABLE   AND SHOULD BE DEAD ON ARRIVAL.

THAT THAT'S MY OPINION ABOUT   THE WAHIAWA LANDFILL OF COURSE,.

THE BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY IS DEAD AGAINST IT.

SO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT IS AGAINST IT.

THE CITY MUST LISTEN TO THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT.

WHY NOT?

THAT'S WHY THEY WERE ELECTED.

SO NOW, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES.

THERE ARE NEW TECHNOLOGIES.

AND WE CAN ACTUALLY DON'T NEED   TO BE FIXATED ON A LANDFILL.

AND THERE ARE OTHER   TECHNOLOGIES THAT CAN TAKE US BEYOND THAT.

>>Lauren: DEFINITELY DIVE INTO THAT AS WELL.

ROGER, WE HAVE SOMEBODY FROM THE CITY HERE.

WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU WEIGH IN   ON WHAT PROFESSOR JUST SAID.

>> WELL, SO THE CITY DOES NEED   TO HAVE A LANDFILL AT LEAST IN THE SHORT‑TERM,  MEDIUM TERM, PERHAPS SOME DAY IN THE FUTURE.

WE COULD HAVE ZERO WASTE FOR EXAMPLE, OR GREATLY  REDUCE THE VOLUME OF WASTE THAT'S PRODUCED.

HAVE EVERYTHING BE RECYCLED AND BE REUSED AND  CONVERSION TECHNOLOGIES THAT HAVE FEW RESIDUALS.

THINGS CAN BE SHIPPED OUT OF THE STATE.

HAZARDOUS WASTE GENERATED IN THE STATE   SHIPPED OUT.

SHIPPING OUT ALL   THE METALS WE REQUIRE AND RECYCLE.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TONS PER YEAR.

EVERYTHING IS SHIPPED IN TO HAWAII AND  IT CAN BE, THINGS CAN BE SHIPPED OUT.

SO IT HAS TO DO WITH COST AND SUSTAINABILITY  AND RESILIENCE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

LANDFILLS ALSO NECESSARY IF WE HAVE DISASTER.

LIKE BIG FIRE PERHAPS.

IN LAHAINA OR HURRICANE.

WE WOULD HAVE A LOT OF DEBRIS   THAT WE WOULD NEED TO DISPOSE OF SOMEHOW.

AND SO IN THAT SITUATION, IT'S MORE DIFFICULT   TO THINK ABOUT PERHAPS SHIPPING ALL  OF THAT MATERIAL AWAY SOMEWHERE.

SO WE ARE EVALUATING AND WE  HAVE LOTS OF RECYCLING PROGRAMS.

HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT THAT MORE AS WE GO ALONG.

AND WE CONTINUE TO HAVE MORE DIFFERENT TYPES   OF RECYCLING AND RECOVERY OF REUSABLE MATERIALS.

>>Lauren: CAN YOU ALSO TOUCH ON WHY THE CITY CHOSE   THE LOCATION EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ABOVE AN AQUIFER?

I REMEMBER DOING SOME RESEARCH AND SAYING TO   ANOTHER INTERVIEW THAT YOU DID ON ANOTHER LOCAL  NEWS OUTLET, EXPLAINING THE LINING AND HOW IT   WOULD POTENTIALLY BE SAFE VIABLE OPTION.

>> RIGHT.

SO LANDFILLS ARE HIGHLY REGULATED  FACILITY BY FEDERAL LAW AN STATE LAW.

ALL DIFFERENT KIND OF LAWS ABOUT WHERE YOU  CAN SITE A LANDFILL AND WHERE YOU CAN'T.

AS WELL AS HOW YOU, MITIGATE ANY POTENTIAL  RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH IT NOT FUNCTIONING   THE WAYS SUPPOSED TO PREVENT FAILURE AND  PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

SO THOSE DO INCLUDE AS YOU MENTIONED, A  LINER SYSTEM, LEACHE COLLECTION SYSTEM,   MONITORING WELLS, GAS COLLECTION WELLS.

THERE ARE CLOSURE ACTIVITIES AND POST   CLOSURE ACTIVITIES.

ALL REQUIRED BY LAW.

AND THOSE ARE SPECIFICALLY OF COURSE DESIGNED  TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

AND THEY'VE BEEN IN PLACE FOR A LONG TIME.

FEDERAL LAW, SINCE 1976, AND THOSE LAWS   HAVE BEEN UPDATE THE PERIODICALLY.

AND SO THOSE ARE DESIGNED TO PROTECT   ALL AMERICANS FROM RISKS  ASSOCIATED WITH LANDFILLS.

AND SO THERE ARE THOUSAND OF LANDFILLS IN THE  UNITED STATES AND SO THERE NEEDS TO BE RULES   AND LAWS PROTECT US FROM THEM AND THERE HAVE  BEEN A LOT OF LANDFILLS ON OAHU IN THE PAST.

AND BE HAPPY TO TALK MORE  ABOUT THAT IF FOLKS WANT.

>>Lauren: HARD TOPIC BECAUSE NOBODY  WANTS A LANDFILL IN THEIR BACKYARD.

CITY DOES DECIDE TO PUT IT  IS GOING TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN HEARING FROM YOUR  CONSTITUENTS ABOUT THIS WAHIAWA LOCATION,   SINCE IT WAS ANNOUNCED MY COMMUNITY REACTED  VERY STRONGLY VEHEMENTLY, IN OPPOSITION.

WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE TOWN HALLS, PACKED  TOWN HALLS WHERE WE INVITED ERNIE LAU   AND MR. BABCOCK TO SPEAK AND ADDRESS AND  EXPLAIN THE SITUATION TO THE COMMUNITY.

VARIOUS PERSPECTIVES SO THE COMMUNITY HAS A  FULL PICTURE OF THE CONFLICT AND ISSUE AT HAND.

AND HONESTLY, OUR COMMUNITY IS NOT  ONLY OPPOSED TO SITING THE LANDFILL   OVER THE AQUIFER IN WAHIAWA, ALSO OPPOSED TO  EXTENSION OF THE LANDFILL AT WAIMANALO GULCH.

BECAUSE THERE'S A STRONG SENSE OF  SOLIDARITY AND CLEAR UNDERSTANDING   OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL RACISM FOLKS ON THE  WEST SIDE SUBJECTED TO OVER THE YEARS.

I THINK THAT HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED  CLEARLY TO ME IN MULTIPLE WAYS.

>>Lauren: GETTING COMMENTS.

START THERE.

ANYONE CAN WEIGH IN.

ALL OF YOU CAN WEIGH   IN ON ONE OR IF THERE'S SOME OF THESE  QUESTIONS MIGHT BE DIRECTED TO ONE PERSON.

START WITH MIKE FROM MAKIKI.

WHERE DO YOU PREFER THE SITE TO FACEBOOK   IN NOT AT THE PROPOSED LOCATION?

NOT AT THE WAHIAWA ONE.

IS THERE ANY CONCESSION AND  HOW DO WE COME TO A CONSENSUS.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO START.

HAVING A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS   ABOUT THAT IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AS YOU AND VIEWERS MAY KNOW,   WAHIAWA IS COMMUNITIES THAT HEAVILY  IMPACTED BY THE PRESENCE OF MILITARY.

SO WE ARE SURROUNDED ON MULTIPLE  SIDES.

THREE SIDES MILITARY PRESENCE.

AND IT IS I WOULD SAY CONSENSUS THAT THE  MILITARY SHOULD BE PROVIDING SOME OF THOSE   LANDS AND THOSE LANDS ARE NOT REALLY  ACCURATELY DESCRIBED AS FEDERAL LANDS.

THEY'RE CEDED LANDS.

SO THOSE ARE CROWN LAND   THAT IS SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN TAKEN BY  THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND IT'S REALLY THE STRONG FEELING MOST  FOLKS THAT I TALK TO IN MY COMMUNITY   WATCHED RED HILL DEBACLE UNFOLD AN REALLY CLEAR  ABOUT THE MILITARY'S RESPONSE FOR THAT AND ALSO,   MILITARY'S INABILITY TO BE TRUTHSFUL ABOUT THAT.

A LOT OF RESENTMENT AND THAT MILITARY SHOULD STEP   UP AND BE PART OF THAT PROBLEM‑SOLVING PROCESS.

>>Lauren: I SAW YOU NODDING YOUR HEAD AS SHE   WAS TALKING.

>> YEAH.

I THINK VERY IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND.

NAVY PUT US ALREADY IN A WATER CRISIS.

COMPROMISED OUR AQUIFER.

FOR DECADES OR POTENTIALLY INDEFINITELY.

SO INDEFINITELY.

DO TO THE EXTENT THEY   DO WANT TO COMMIT TO DOING THE RIGHT THING OR  RIGHT AFTER CONTAMINATING OUR GROUNDWATER SUPPLY,   REALLY SHOULD BE THINKING HARD ABOUT HOW THEY CAN  AVOID POTENTIALLY RISKING ANOTHER WATER SOURCE.

>>Lauren: PROFESSOR, YOU'RE  NODDING YOUR HEAD AS WELL.

>> I MUST SAY, THE MILITARY HAS NO OBLIGATION  TO MAKE LAND AVAILABLE FOR A LANDFILL.

THIS IS NOT THEIR PROBLEM.

IT'S NOT CITY'S PROBLEM.

THEY HAVE BEEN MORE RESPONSIBLE AND  COME UP WITH A SOLUTION ON THEIR OWN.

THEY CANNOT JUST START IMPOSING UPON THE MILITARY  AND THE THERE'S NO NEED TO DO THAT WHEN ULTIMATE   SOLUTIONS ARE AVAILABLE.

AGAIN, EVERY QUESTION ASKS   FOR WHERE CAN WE PLACE A LANDFILL.

OKAY, WHAT SHOULD BE THE LIFE OF A   LANDFILL.

AGAIN, AND AGAIN, FIXATED ON A LANDFILL.

WHAT WE HAVE TO BE FIXATED ON WASTE MANAGEMENT.

DIFFERENT WAYS TO GET TO MANAGING WASTE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE FIXATED ON A LANDFILL.

>>Lauren: HAVE SOMEONE ASKED ABOUT THAT.

PROBABLY FIND THE QUESTION.

GOT SO MANY I THINK I GOT LOST.

SINCE WE'RE ON THE TOPIC, CAN YOU GIVE US SOME,   WE ARE YOUR IDEAS OF ALTERNATES TO A LANDFILL?

>> WELL, MOST PROMISING AND BEST ALTERNATE RIGHT   NOW AND EMERGENT TECHNOLOGY, EMERGENT ONLY IN THE  AREA OF MSW, BUT BEEN AROUND ON EARTH FOR ABOUT   100 YEARS IS PLASMA ARC GASIFICATION.

NOT BURNED, GASSIFIES ALL PARTICLES   AT 15,000 DEGREES CENTIGRADE  INTO ITS IONS AND ELEMENTS.

PRODUCES, LESSER ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT  THAN EVEN THE LANDFILL OR INCINERATION.

USES ABOUT 1/50, SORRY, 100TH OF  THE LAND THAT LANDFILL WILL USE.

IT HAS NO LEACHE PROBLEMS.

AND IT'S MORE COST‑EFFECTIVE THAN A LANDFILL.

AND YOU CAN PRODUCE ELECTRICITY FROM IT.

AND IN THE END, YOU CAN MAKE MONEY FROM PLASMA   ARC GASIFICATION PLANNED BY BURNING WASTE.

IN FACT YOU CAN CAN MINE THE REFUSE   INSIDE WAIMANALO GULCH FOR ELECTRICITY.

RIGHT NOW, YOU SHOULD ASK THE CITY HOW MUCH   DO THEY SPEND EACH YEAR ON MANAGING THE LANDFILL?

HOW MANY TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IS THAT?

BUT TO PLASMA ARC GASIFICATION, WHICH HAS BEEN USE  MANY PLACES AROUND THE WORLD AND COMPANIES THAT   SELL THE TECHNOLOGY AND SELL PLANS.

CITY CAN MAKE MONEY.

IS THE CITY IN BUSINESS TO  MAKE MONEY OR LOSE MONEY?

WE MUST ASK EVERYBODY THAT QUESTION.

>>Lauren: CAN YOU WEIGH IN ON THAT?

CITY CONSIDERING PLASMA ARC GASFICATION.

>> ACTUALLY, THERE WAS A PLASMA ARC   GASIFICATION FACILITY ON OAHU IN THE PAST.

SMALL PILOT FACILITY IN CAMPBELL INDUSTRIAL PARK.

AND IT SPECIALIZED IN MEDICAL WASTE.

TOOK ONLY MEDICAL WASTE AND   SIZE LIMITATION WAS FIVE‑GALLON DRUM.

SO THAT WAS HOW IT WAS DEAD AND THAT WAS A,   I'LL NOT REALLY SURE IF IT WAS,  RESEARCH PROBABLY OR DEMONSTRATION.

BUT EVENTUALLY IT CLOSED DOWN.

I THINK IT WASN'T ECONOMICAL OR SOMETHING.

SO TO CITY HAS PREVIOUSLY LOOKED DOING FULL  SCALE PLANT LIKE THAT BUT AS DOCTOR MENTIONED   THERE ISN'T A FULL‑SCALE FACILITY TO  VIEW OR TO BE ABLE TO USE AS A MODEL   FOR SOMETHING OF THE SCALE THAT WE WOULD NEED.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO BE THE FIRST AT SOMETHING.

ESPECIALLY IF IT'S VERY  EXPENSIVE AND NEW TECHNOLOGY AND   NOT PROVEN AT THE SCALE THAT WE WOULD NEED.

WE KNOW THAT WE GET 2,000 TONS OF DAY OF WASTE   THAT WE NEED TO DEAL WITH AND SO WE HAVE TO  HAVE SOMETHING THAT TECHNOLOGY THAT RELIABLE.

WHEN YOU PUT OUT YOUR TRASH EVERY DAY, OR YOUR  GREEN CART OR BLUE CART, WE PICK IT UP AND YOU   DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

SO THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

WE NEED TO COLLECT AND MOVE  THE MATERIAL AND DISPOSE OF IT.

WE DO MAKE A LOT OF ELECTRICITY.

SO ABOUT $70 MILLION A YEAR WORTH OF   ELECTRICITY IS SOLD TO HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC COMPANY.

9 OR 10% OF THE DEMAND ON THE ISLAND.

SO HPOWER IS WASTE TO ENERGY FACILITY.

SO WE DO ACCOMPLISH THAT.

BUT THE DEPARTMENT AND THERE'S  TIPPING FEES AND MANY OTHER THINGS.

BUT THE DEPARTMENT, IT DOES COST  THE DEPARTMENT MORE TO RUN ALL   OF THE REFUSE OPERATION AND DISPOSAL ON  HPOWER THAN THE INCOME THAT IS RECEIVED.

>>Lauren: I DID FIND THE COMMENT BY THE WAY.

OUT OF ALL OF THESE PAPERS.

VIEWER HIS NAME IS JP AND HE  JUST WROTE IT, AGREES WITH YOU.

WE SHOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDER VERY OUTDATED  LANDFILL IDEAS EVERYBODY WANTING TO HEAR ABOUT   YOUR ALTERNATIVE IDEAS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU SEE, PROFESSOR BABCOCK SAID THAT  THERE ARE NO OTHER MODELS TO GO BY.

BUT THAT IS BLATANTLY WRONG.

WE'VE HAD SINCE 2020, 20‑TON   PER DAY PLANT COMMISSION AT FORT HUNTER USA.

INDIA RUNNING 72 DAY PLAN SINCE 2008 HAVE YOU   VISITED ANY OF THESE PLANTS?

>> NO.

CITY HAS BEEN LOOKING SINCE, 2011, FOR  SOME SOLUTION TO THIS LANDFILL PROBLEM.

AND IT'S BEEN 14 YEARS AND THEY  HAVEN'T COME UP WITH A SOLUTION?

WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING FOR 14 YEARS.

EVEN FOUR YEARS IS A LONG TIME SINCE   THE BLANGIARDI ADMINISTRATION CAME IN.

ALL DUE RESPECT TO THAT ADMINISTRATION.

WE'VE GOT BE, GOT TO WORK FASTER WITH GREATER  URGENCY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO THIS MATTER.

OTTAWA MANAGED 35‑TON PER DAY PLAN FOR ABOUT 15  YEARS BEFORE IT RAN INTO SOME FINANCIAL ISSUES.

NOT THAT'S PLANT WAS NOT PROFITABLE.

PLANT WAS PROFITABLE BUT   THERE WERE OTHER ISSUES GOING ON.

IN YOSHI, JAPAN, 1994, 24 TONS PER DAY PLANT.

WE KNOW THAT OAHU PRODUCES  A THOUSAND TONS PER DAY.

SO HOW CAN WE.

>> 2000.

>>Lauren: EVEN MORE.

>> I HAVE DIFFERENT FORECASTS HERE FROM THE CITY.

THEY SAID BY 2040, WE WILL  HAVE ABOUT 800 TONS PER DAY.

I DON'T KNOW WHO DO BELIEVE.

WORDS OF THE CITY AND COUNTY OF HONOLULU   OR PRINTED STUFF OR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING NOW.

MAYBE BUT EVEN THEN, THE WAY TO SOLVE IT,   YOU SHOULD THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

FIRST OF ALL YOU CAN SCALE A PLANT UP TO 500 TONS   PER DAY, THOUSAND TONS PER DAY IN CHEMICAL  ENGINEERING AND NEXT, YOU CAN EVEN THINK OF   HAVING A DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM IN EVERY COMMUNITY,  HAVING 50 TONS PER DAY HERE, 50 TONS PER DAY HERE,   EACH COMMUNITY SHOWED HANDLE THEIR OWN TRASH.

>>Lauren: LET'S GET SO SOME OTHER   VIEWER QUESTIONS.

THEY ARE PILING UP.

KALIHI IS ASKING, CURRENT LANDFILL  SITE HAS MANY MORE YEARS OF LIFE LEFT.

YOU COULD PROBABLY WEIGH IN.

WHY CLOSE IT NOW?

SEEMS LOGICAL TO BUY US AS MUCH TIME AS  POSSIBLE UNTIL THIS DILEMMA IS SOLVED.

MAYBE POTENTIALLY GIVES MORE TIME TO  FIGURE OUT OTHER CREATIVE SOLUTIONS.

>> OPERATING PERMIT FOR THE LANDFILL  REQUIRED, WAS LAST UPDATED IN 2019.

GAVE AN EXTENSION TO THE LANDFILL.

IT REQUIRED THAT LANDFILL IDENTIFIED, NEW   LANDFILL SITE IDENTIFIED BY DECEMBER 31, OF 2022.

CITY WAS NOT ABLE TO MEET THAT DEADLINE AND ASKED   FOR 2 YEAR EXTENSION TO DECEMBER 31, OF 2024 TO  ANNOUNCE A SITE THIS SITE, RIGHT BEFORE THAT.

THE PERMIT ALSO SPECIFIES THAT  LANDFILL WILL CLOSE BY 2028.

NO LONGER RECEIVE WASTE.

NEW LANDFILL WOULD BE   IN PLACE TO RECEIVE THE WASTE.

SO THAT'S HOW WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE.

>>Lauren: I'M GOING BACK A LITTLE BIT.

>> SORRY.

I'M SORRY.

I DIDN'T FULLY ANSWER THE QUESTION.

EVERY YEAR, WE DO AN ASSESSMENT OF FLYOVER WITH  DRONES TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH CAPACITY IS LEFT.

AND CURRENTLY, ESTIMATE IS CAPACITY IN  THE EXISTED PERMITTED THE SITE TILL 2032.

AT CURRENT WASTE GENERATION RATES.

>>Lauren: I KNOW I'M GOING BACK A LITTLE BIT.

TALKED ABOUT SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

KIND OF GLAZED OVER FEW OF THEM.

ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS ASKING, WANTED TO  KNOW FROM OUR PANELISTS HERE, WHERE YOU   THINK THE PROPOSED LOCATION WOULD BE OR SHOULD BE.

I DIDN'T GIVE SIERRA CLUB A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN.

DO YOU GUYS HAVE SUGGESTED SPOT IF  IT'S NOT THE CURRENT ONE IN WAHIAWA?

>> I THINK WE TOUCHED UPON SOME POTENTIAL  OPTION LOOKING TO NAVY AND FEDERAL LANDS   BEING CONSIDERED AND I GUESS THE  NAVY CHANGE ITS MIND FOR SOME REASON.

I'M ACTUALLY CURIOUS IF CITY HAS  ANY MORE INSIGHTS WHAT LED TO THAT.

REALLY, I DON'T THINK, THERE'S  A LANDFILL ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

I FEEL LIKE MAYBE THEIR DISCUSSION  MAY NEED TO BE REOPENED.

JUST TO LOOK AT WHAT OTHER OPTIONS THERE MAY BE.

BOTH UNDER EXISTING FRAMEWORK AND MAYBE SPECIFIC   AMENDMENTS DO I THINK ACT 73  WHAT THE RECOMMENDATIONS WERE.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT I THINK  THE OVERALL RECOMMENDATIONS WAS   NOT TO SITE A LANDFILL OVER AQUIFER.

BUT THAT PARTICULAR RECOMMENDATION WAS   NOT FOLLOWED.

REALLY, ONE THING I   WOULD LIKE TO KNOW OUT THERE IS TO THE EXTENT WE  ARE GOING TO DISCUSS LANDFILL, THAT IS IN PLAY.

MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOKING TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE  BEEN DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY THE CURRENT SITUATION.

SO THE FOLKS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE INJUSTICE  AND HEALTH IMPACTS, GENERATIONAL HEALTH IMPACTS   AND NO JUST BECAUSE RIGHT THING TO  DO, REALLY HAVE INSIGHTS HOW TO SET   SOMETHING UP MORE EQUITABLE AND LESS UNJUST.

AND TO THE EXTENT SEEKING THEIR INSIGHTS AND   GUIDANCE, EVEN DECISION‑MAKING, WE NEED  TO MAKE SURE THEIR WORK IS ALSO SUPPORTED.

SO WE'RE NOT JUST EXPLOITING THEIR TIME AND LABOR.

REALLY RETHINKING HOW WE, WHO WE LOOK TO   IN ALL OF THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CHALLENGING.

>>Lauren: YOU JUST ASKED IN THE MIDDLE THAT,   YOU ASKED ROGER A QUESTION ABOUT SOME  OF THE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MILITARY.

THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE PART 2  THAT I WANTED TO GO BACK TO.

DID THE CITY HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE  MILITARY USING THEIR LAND FOR LANDFILL AND   WHERE DID THAT CONVERSATION END?

>> YEAH, THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.

SO LANDFILL, PREVIOUS EFFORTS LOOKED BASICALLY  DO ESSENTIALLY GEOGRAPHIC INFORMATION SYSTEM   SORT OF ANALYSIS OF LAND AREAS, AND EXCLUDE  AREAS THAT ARE EXCLUDED BY EITHER BEING WITHIN   10,000 FEET OF AIRPORT, TSUNAMI INUNDATION ZONE.

HOSPITAL OR SCHOOL, EARTHQUAKE, FEDERAL RULES.

MILITARY LANDS USUAL HAVE EXCLUDED IN THE PAST  FROM THE ANALYSIS BECAUSE IT WAS ASSUMED THAT VERY   DIFFICULT TO GET INFORMATION FOR THOSE LANDS.

SO LANDFILL ADVISORY COMMITTEE WAS   NOT DID NOT LOOK AT THOSE.

AND THEN THE RED HILL CRISIS HAPPENED.

SO THEY SAID, YOU SHOULDN'T BE OVER THE AQUIFER.

YOU SHOULD GO OUTSIDE NO‑PASS ZONE AND GO BACK   TO THE MILITARY EMINENT DOMAIN PURCHASE  PROPERTIES OTHERWISE NEED RESIDENTIAL.

BUY THEM FOR EXAMPLE.

SO WE USED THAT INFORMATION   AND WE DID GO BACK TO THE LAC, ADVISORY LANDFILL,  LAND USE COMMISSION, LUC, AND ASKED THEM FOR THE   2 YEAR EXTENSION DO JUST THAT.

WHAT WE DID IN THE 2 YEARS,   TIME PERIOD, WAS TO LOOK TO GO TO THE  MILITARY ASK MILITARY LANDS, POTENTIAL   SITES OUTSIDE NO‑PASS ZONE AND LOOK AT OPTIONS  FOR DOING, PURCHASING RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES.

AND TURNING THEM INTO NOT RESIDENTIAL  ANY MORE, AND SITING THERE.

WE DO ALL OF THOSE ANALYSES.

THEN WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT THE MILITARY SAID NO,   TO THE SITES, THAT WERE AVAILABLE, WE DIDN'T  FIND ANY OPTIONS FOR EMINENT DOMAIN WOULD ROA   REQUIRED PURCHASING TOO MANY HOMES AT ASTRONOMICAL  COST AND THEN THE WITH THE ACT 73 RESTRICTIONS,   THERE WAS NO OTHER PLACES.

SO THAT IS WHY WE MADE A   SORT OF THREE STEP PLAN A, PLAN B, PLAN C. PLAN A IDENTIFIED AND GAVE OUR ASSURANCES THAT   WE WOULD TO THE BEST USE THE BEST TECHNOLOGY  AVAILABLE TO MAKE IT AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.

AND THEN A PLAN B, WOULD BE TO GO BACK  TO THE LEGISLATURE TO MODIFY ACTS 73   IN ORDER TO MAKE, SITES AVAILABLE OUTSIDE OF  THE NO‑PASS ZONE, OUTSIDE THE AQUIFER, REQUIRES   THE BOTH BUFFERS DISTANCE TO BE REDUCED AND THE  CONSERVATION AREA RESTRICTION TO BE ELIMINATED.

IF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN, THERE ARE SEVERAL  SITES THAT WE IDENTIFIED THAT ARE POSSIBLE SITES.

THAT COULD HOST LANDFILL.

THAT'S PLAN B.

PLAN C IF BOTH OF THOSE RESULT IN NOTHING, OR  OUTLAWED IN SOME WAY, WE WOULD MOVE TO PLAN C.  AS THE ONLY OTHER ALTERNATIVES.

WHICH IS TO STAY AT WAIMANALO GULCH AND   SOMEHOW EXPAND IT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>>Lauren: I SEE YOU LEANING IN.

VERY INTRIGUED IN SOME OF THE  THINGS THAT ROGER IS SAYING.

I FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE A QUESTION YOU WANT TO ASK.

>> I DO.

I GUESS MY QUESTION KIND  FOLLOWING UP ON THAT DESCRIPTION.

QUESTION I'VE BEEN ASKED BY COMMUNITY  MEMBERS I HAVEN'T HAD THE ANSWER.

REALLY ABOUT THE NEGOTIATION WITH THE MILITARY.

AND WONDERING IF OUR GOVERNOR OR MEMBERS OF OUR   FEDERAL DELEGATION WERE INVOLVED IN THOSE  CONVERSATIONS OR CONVERSATION BETWEEN   CITY AND THESE HIGH LEVEL MILITARY LEADERS.

BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THAT MIGHT BE PART OF PROBLEM.

>> SO IT WAS NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN  CITY AND THE HIGH LEVEL MILITARY.

TO BE CLEAR CONVERSATIONS WITH THE  MILITARY LAND, USING IT FOR A LANDFILL.

IS THAT DONE OR COULD THERE  STILL BE A DOOR OR PATHWAY.

>> AS FAR AS CITY CONCERNED,  THAT PATHWAY IS CLOSED.

BUT IF IT WAS REOPENED IN SOME WAY, THEN  WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING.

>>Lauren: ERIC KAILUA, I THINK REFERENCE FOR YOU,  WITH THE STATE MAKING DIFFICULT FOR FIND A NEW   LANDFILL SITE, WHAT WOULD STATE LAWMAKERS SUGGEST  THE CITY DO AND EVEN THE OTHER COUNTIES SINCE THEY   TOO WILL BE IN THE SAME SITUATION AT SOME POINT?

>> I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, LAWMAKERS ARE REALLY   STRUGGLING WITH THIS SITUATION.

BECAUSE AS WE KNOW,   NOT WELCOME KIND OF FACILITY IN ANY COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK THAT LAWMAKERS ACTUALLY HAVE   HAVING MORE COMPLEX INTERESTING  CONVERSATIONS, AROUND WASTE MANAGEMENT.

SO HAVING A LOT MORE CONVERSATIONS  ABOUT EXTENDED PRODUCER RESPONSIBILITY.

SO AS TO REDUCE THE SOURCES OF THESE  WASTEWATER MATERIALS AND TO WASTE   MATERIALS AND MOVE IN THE DIRECTION THAT  MANY JURISDICTIONS HAVE MOVED TO, MAKE SURE   GOOD WE ARE CONSUMING ARE PRODUCING LESS WASTE.

AND HOLDING THOSE PRODUCERS MAKE MILLIONS OF   DOLLARS OFF OF THESE PRODUCTS  ECONOMICALLY RESPONSIBLE.

TO BUILD KIND OF FACILITIES  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

DOING MORE AND MORE INVESTMENT IN THE  AREA OF REDUCING RECYCLING AND REUSING.

>>Lauren: TRY TO GET THROUGH SOME MORE OF THESE.

WE HAVE A LOT OF VIEWERS THAT ARE   DEFINITELY INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC.

PATTING ASK, WHAT IS THE FEESABILITY OF   BUILDING SMALLER LANDFILLS AROUND THE ISLAND  TO ALLOW MORE COMMUNITIES TO HELP SHOULDER   THE BURDEN LIVING CLOSE TO ONE ANOTHER?

>> PROBLEM IS THAT WITH THE RESTRICTIONS   THAT EXIST NOW, THERE ARE NO PLACES WHERE YOU  CAN DO, WHERE YOU CAN PUT IT IN COMMUNITIES.

>>Lauren: CASEY ON FACEBOOK IS ASKING, HOW  MUCH OF WHAT GOES INTO OAHU'S LANDFILL IS FROM   RESIDENTS VERSUS FROM THE MILITARY VERSUS FROM  THE MILLIONS OF TOURISTS BUILDINGS AND HOTELS   DO WE KNOW THE BREAKDOWN.

>> I DON'T THINK WE   HAVE THE BREAKDOWNS BY THE SOURCE.

CITY DOES, WE ONLY COLLECT FROM RESIDENTIAL.

COMMERCIAL, MILITARY, ALL OTHER COLLECTION  IS DONE BY PRIVATE WASTE HAULING COMPANIES.

BUT IT ALL ULTIMATELY COMES TO THE CITY.

SO WE ARE RESPONSIBLE THEN FOR   ITS PROCESSING AND DISPOSAL.

SO IT DOES INCLUDE COMMERCIAL,   MILITARY, EVERYBODY.

WE GET THE WASTE.

>>Lauren: WE GET COMMENTS FROM OUR VIEWERS.

NOT QUESTIONS BUT I WANT TO READ THEM, READ THEM   BACK‑TO‑BACK AND THEN MAYBE GIVE YOU GUYS A CHANCE  TO WEIGH IN ON WHAT THE COMMUNITY IS SAYING.

THIS VIEWER WROTE IN, WHY IN THE  WORLD CITY STILL LOOKING AT THE   WAHIAWA SITE WHEN THEY KNOW IT'S OVER AQUIFER?

AFTER ALL PROBLEMS AT RED HILL, UNBELIEVABLE.

THIS OTHER COMMENT FROM ANTHONY, SAID, NO DISTRICT  SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OAHU LANDFILL.

EVERY DISTRICT MUST SHARE SOLUTION TO LOCATION.

IF NOT MY BACKYARD, WHOSE.

DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS RECONCILES.

PROTECT OUR AQUIFERS.

DON'T ALLOW LANDFILLS NEAR THEM.

WE NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

GET SENTIMENT WHAT VIEWERS ARE SAYING.

>> LAND USE COMMISSION DOESN'T HAVE HAVE   THE FULL INFORMATION AND NOBODY HAS  FED THEM THE ACCURATE INFORMATION.

SO IN 2019, LUC GRANTED SPECIAL USE  PERMIT ALLOWED OPERATION OF WAIMANALO   GULCH LANDFILL UNTIL MARCH 2028.

BUT AGAIN, NOBODY HAS TOLD THEM   YOU CAN DO WITHOUT A LANDFILL.

THERE IS ALTERNATE TECHNOLOGY.

YOU SEE, WHEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, WHEN EVERYBODY  HEALTH IS BEING EFFECTED, ABOUT ALL OVER THE   ISLAND, YOUR LANDFILLS ARE PRODUCING MORE NITROUS  OXIDES PARTICULATE MATTER, SULFUR DIOXIDE,   CARBON MONOXIDE, MERCURY AND DIOXINS AND FUELS  THAT CAUSE CANCER, PLASMA GASIFICATION PLAN.

WHY CAN'T WE THINK OF GOING  FOR PLASMA GASIFICATION?

BURNING WASTE THROUGH THE HPOWER, IN FACT, AT  THAT TIME, IF THE CITY HAD OPTED FOR PLASMA   ARC GASIFICATION, WOULD HAVE MADE MORE MONEY  AND IT WOULD HAVE EMITTED FEWER POLLUTANT.

INCINERATION EMITS A LOT OF POLLUTANTS  ARE DAMAGING EVERYBODY'S HEALTH.

NOW WHEN YOU LOOK AT, RECOVERY AND  RECYCLING, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT   COULD HAVE BEEN STARTED YESTERDAY.

THE HAZARDOUS WASTE THAT SHIPPED   OUT IS SUCH A SMALL QUANTITY.

MEDICAL WASTE, THAT YOU COULD, I MEAN,   NOBODY EVEN WORRIES ABOUT SHIPPING IT OUT.

SHIPPING OUT THOUSANDS TONS OF   TRASH IS MASSIVE PROJECT.

WHO WILL WANT TO SHIP IT OUT?

BE THE CONTRACTOR TAKE IT AWAY?

CITY TRIED TO FIND A CONTRACTOR,   AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT?

COULDN'T GET ANY TAKERS.

>>Lauren: FROM WHAT I'M HEARING FROM ROGER  FROM THE CITY, RIGHT NOW, THE CITY STILL   NEEDS TO FIND A LANDFILL.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>>Lauren: WE CAN'T JUST GO  STRAIGHT TO WHAT PROFESSOR   IS SAYING IS SUGGESTING.

>> WELL, NOT BY 2028.

CONSTRUCTION PERMITTING AND CONSTRUCTION  AND STUFF LIKE THAT WILL TAKE A LONG   TIME FOR A NEW WASTE REDUCTION FACILITY.

IN THE INTERIM, IF THAT WAS THE WAY WE WENT,   WE WOULD HAVE A LOT OF WASTE THAT  WE WOULD STILL NEED TO PROCESS.

AND EITHER IF NEW FACILITY TOTALLY  DIFFERENT LOCATION, THAT IS FINE.

KEEP IT RUNNING.

SAME LOCATION, WE HAVE TO SHUT   IT DOWN AND DEPOSITED ALL SOLID WASTE.

HPOWER REDUCES IT VOLUME BY 90%   INSTEAD OF MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE.

TEN TIMES AS 2,000 TONS PER DAY.

880,000 TONS PER YEAR HOW MUCH  WASTE THE ISLAND PRODUCES.

>>Lauren: SPEAK OF ALL OF THAT WASTE,  WE PUT OUT A, SORRY, TO CUT YOU OFF.

WANT TO KEEP GOING.

COMMENT FROM THE VIEWER,   KIND OF PIGGY BACKS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING PUT OUT  FACEBOOK QUESTION AND WE ASKED VIEWERS HOW DO   WE SOLVE OAHU'S LANDFILL DILEMMA?

CUT BACK ON CONSUMPTION AND WASTE.

IS HER ANSWER A VIABLE PATH FORWARD  OR IMPROVEMENT TO OUR PROBLEM?

HOW DO WE GET OUR COMMUNITY TO DO THAT?

>> WE I THINK MOST, I DON'T REMEMBER THE   NUMBERS, HUGE PERCENTAGE OF EVERYTHING  THAT WE USE AND CONSUME SHIPPED IN.

SO IT HAS TO HAVE PACKAGING.

JUST WATER AND BIG TANKS I GUESS WE   COULD JUST PUMP IT OUT OF A SHIP SOMETHING ELSE.

FOOD AND PRODUCTS AND ALL KINDS OF ELECTRONICS   AND EVERYTHING THAT WE BUY AND  CONSUME COMES IN PACKAGING.

SHIPS ARE COMING EVERY DAY.

BRINGING CONTAINER LOADS OF THINGS ALL OF THAT   ENDS UP BECOMING MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE PRETTY.

MUCH EXCEPT FOR THE PART WE TAKE OUT AND USE.

SO THAT'S A BIG CHALLENGE.

TO FIGURE OUT HERE.

WE DON'T PRODUCE, DON'T REALLY MAKE  ANYTHING WE SHIP OUT EXCEPT FOR SOME FOOD.

THAT IS OUR CHALLENGE.

TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE DO THAT.

THERE ARE WAYS.

YOU CAN USE RECYCLABLE CONTAINERS.

AND HAVE SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN DO WITH  THAT RECYCLE ALUMINUM AND GLASS AND PAPER   AND PLASTIC AND NOW, ELECTRONIC WASTE ALSO  COLLECTED AND IS SHIPPED TO RECYCLING CENTERS.

SO THERE ARE THINGS TO BE DONE.

OBVIOUSLY NEED TO DO MORE IN A AREA AND   WE THAT IS WHAT THE CITY IS DOING AND PURSUING.

WE HAVE HIGH RECYCLING RATE.

>>Lauren: HOW DO YOU FROM THE SIERRA CLUB,  PERSPECTIVE, ENCOURAGE COMMUNITY TO REDUCE   THEIR WASTE CONSUMPTION AND DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE  COMMUNITY CAN MAKE A DENT IN OUR LANDFILL PROBLEM   IF WE'RE BETTER AT THAT?

>> WE HAVE TO.

ISN'T JUST WASTE STREAM ISSUE.

THIS IS RESILIENCE ISSUE.

KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH OUR PLANET,  SUPPLY CHAINS ARE BREAKING DOWN,   FOOD PRODUCING REGIONS WE DEPEND ON DRYING UP.

BE MORE SELF‑SUFFICIENT, LEASE RELIANT ON   THE INPUT FOOD AND GOODS.

CHILDREN  AND GRANDCHILDREN NEED TO SURVIVE.

NEED TO MAKE THESE CHANGES OR JUST  CONDEMN THEM TO UNIMAGINABLE REALITY.

SO THAT'S PART OF MESSAGE PUTTING OUT THERE.

NEED TO FOLKS ON PREPARING   OURSELF FOR WANTS TO COME.

WE NEED TO FOCUS ON TO THE EXTENT, SORRY,   THAT KIND OF INFORMS MY CONCERNS WITH REGARDS  TO OPERATION OF THIS LANDFILL OVER AQUIFER.

SO AS ERNIE LAU SAYS LANDFILLS ARE FOREVER.

EVEN WITH BEST SYSTEMS IN PLACE,   SAW AT RED HILL, HUMAN ERROR.

HAVE TO BE MINDFUL OF THAT WE   MAY NOT HAVE THE INPORT, RESOURCES NECESSARY  TO MAINTAIN THIS LANDFILL TO PUMP OUT LEACHE,   WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT POSSIBILITY OF  FIRES OR OTHER EXTREME WEATHER RELATED   EVENTS COULD COMPROMISE THIS FACILITY.

MAYBE NOT 8 OR TEN YEARS, 80 OR 100 YEARS,   WITHIN OUR GRANDCHILDREN'S LIFETIME.

>> JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ENGINEERS   POLITICIANS ARE LAZY TO FIND A SOLUTION DOESN'T  MEAN WE SHOULD REDUCE OUR QUALITY OF LIFE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO REDUCE THE WASTE WE CONSUME.

HAVE TO HANDLE IT AND MANAGE IT BETTER.

PLASMA GASIFICATION BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

ROGER BABCOCK SAID.

PAM BONDI WANTED CRIMINALS AND  ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO SELF‑DEPORT,   TOLD BY MEMBERS OF STAFF TAKE SIX  MONTHS TO DEVELOP AN APP TO DO THAT.

BUT ELON MUSK SAID WE'LL DO IN 24 HOURS.

WANTED TO GET DEVICES.

SIX MONTHS.

SAID WE'LL DO IT IN A WEEK.

THEY DID IT IN A WEAK.

WHERE THERE'S A WILL, THERE'S A WAY.

GOT TO BE IMAGINATIVE.

INNOVATIVE, PUSH THE ENVELOPE, WORK HARD.

NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REALLY THINKING OUT  OF THE BOX AND YOU'VE GOT TO MOVE IT.

THE NEW TECHNOLOGY IS HERE.

THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY.

BUT THE LANDFILL IS 19TH CENTURY TECHNOLOGY.

I CANNOT IMAGINE WHY EVERYBODY SAYS,   WE SHOULD NOW HAVE LANDFILL.

EVERYBODY FED UP WITH THE LANDFILL.

WHO ISN'T FED UP WITH THE LANDFILL?

FIND A DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGY AND PLASMA   ARC GASIFICATION IS SITTING THERE.

LOW‑HANGING FRUIT.

READY TO BE PLUCKED.

>>Lauren: I HEAR YOU.

I KNOW WITH HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS ON THE  LANDFILL BECAUSE TONIGHT AS SHOW IS ABOUT   THE PROPOSED LOCATION AND LANDFILL.

I KNOW CITY HAS MADE IT CLEAR WE   STILL REGARDLESS IN THE INTERIM, AT LEAST  UNTIL THEY ARE READY OR ABLE TO GO INTO   NEW TECHNOLOGIES NEED TO A LANDFILL.

QUESTIONS ON THE PROPOSED LOCATION.

WAHIAWA LOCATION.

FIRST ONE IS FROM MARY IN MILILANI,   ASKING WHAT THE PROPOSED LINING MADE OF?

HAVE THEY THOUGHT IF THE MATERIALS THEY'RE   PROPOSING AND WHETHER THE MATERIALS ARE COULD  BE HARMFUL OR TOXIC BACK TO THE PROPOSED WAHIAWA   LOCATION.

>> YEAH.

SO LANDFILL LINERS ARE REQUIRED IN THE  RULES AN REGULATIONS AND FEDERAL LAWS.

AND ALIGNER, LINER SYSTEM SAME  THING WAIMANALO GULCH LANDFILL.

THE AT LEAST TWO PREVIOUS LANDFILLS IN  KAILUA, AND ONE PREVIOUS LANDFILL IN WAIANAE,   THAT TAKES US BACK TO THE 1960S.

IT'S A TWO PART LINER.

WHAT'S CALLED GEOMEMBRANE.

WORD FOR PLASTIC.

THICK PLASTIC HIGH DENSITY POLYETHYLENE LINER.

OTHER PART IS A CLAY LINER.

SO THOSE TWO THINGS ARE SANDWICHED TOGETHER  KIND OF, THAT'S CALLED SINGLE LINER SYSTEM.

AND THAT IS ON THE EXCAVATED AREA ON THE GROUND.

SAND, GRAVEL, PLACED ON TOP OF THERE.

MORE SAND AND GRAVEL.

AND THEN WASTE IS PLACED INSIDE THERE.

IF THE LOW SPOTS IS WATER, GATHERED,  AND IT IS EXTRACTED USING PUMPS   THAT MATERIAL CALLED LEACHE AND THAT IS MUST BE  REMOVED FROM THE LANDFILL ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS.

THE RULES ARE SUCH THAT YOU CAN'T  HAVE ANY MORE THAN 12 INCHES OF   WATER IN THE BOTTOM OF LANDFILL AT ANY TIME.

SO IT'S NOT A BIG STORAGE TANK OF LIQUID OR   WATER LIKE A FUEL STORAGE TANK.

SO THE HEAD ON THE BOTTOM OF   THE LANDFILL IS ONLY 12 INCHES.

>>Lauren: THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE   ANSWERED THIS OTHER VIEWER QUESTION.

MIKE FROM THE BIG ISLAND, ASSUMING   LANDFILL IS BUILT IN WAHIAWA, WHAT DOES THE CITY  PLAN TO DO IF THERE IS A LEACHE INTO THE AQUIFER?

>> LANDFILLS HAVE TO HAVE MONITORING WELLS.

AND SO LEACHE IS CONTINUOUSLY REMOVED.

AS IT IS FROM WAIMANALO GULCH.

AND HAVE TO TAKE THAT AND TREAT IT.

GOES TO WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANTS.

IS THE WAYS DONE NOW.

IF THERE WAS A LEAK, IT WOULD BE DETECTED  WHEN IT REACHED THE WATER SUPPLY.

AND NOT WATER SUPPLY, MONITORING, MONITORING  WELL THAT'S REQUIRED TO BE AROUND THE LANDFILL.

AND THEN THAT WOULD ALERT THE CITY AND  BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY AND RESIDENTS THAT   THIS HAD HAPPENED AND ANY DOWNSTREAM WELLS THAT  WOULD BE AFFECTED POTENTIALLY IF IT WAS CONTINUE,   THEN THAT WOULD BE YOU WOULD TAKE  ACTION TO EITHER CLOSE THOSE WELLS   OR TREAT THE WATER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> THERE'S NOT MUCH ACTION YOU CAN TAKE.

BY THE TIME THAT LEACHE REACHES THOSE MONITORING  WELLS.

HEADED STRAIGHT FOR THE AQUIFER.

THERE'S NO LANDFILL IN THE  WORLD THAT DOESN'T LEAK.

SO WHY ARE WE STILL THINKING THAT WE LIVE IN  THIS FAIRY TALE WORLD THAT OUR ENGINEERING WE   CAN MAKE A PERFECT SOLUTION, PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN  THE REAL WORLD, KNOW THAT LANDFILL WILL LEAK.

>>Lauren: YOUR COMMENT DOES LEAD STRAIGHT TO  RELATES TO THIS VIEWER'S COMMENT AND QUESTIONS.

FRUSTRATED VIEWER IN KAPOLEI.

WHAT THIS PERSON CALLED THEMSELVES.

CITY TAKING HEAT TONIGHT.

YOU'RE TOUGH POSITION AND PERHAPS RIGHTFULLY   SO GIVEN CURRENT SYSTEM, THERE IS ENTIRE STATE  GOVERNMENT WITH MORE RESOURCES AT ITS DISPOSAL.

WHAT IS IT PLANNING TO DO TO HELP?

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION.

LEGALLY, WASTE MANAGEMENT FALLS  UNDER PURVIEW OF CITY & COUNTY.

FALLS UNCOUNTY'S JURISDICTION AND  FALLS UNDER COUNTY'S JURISDICTION.

STATE INVOLVED, WE ARE INVOLVED, GOVERNS  THESE PRACTICE WRITING LEGISLATION.

REALLY STRIKES ME THAT THERE HAS  BEEN INADEQUATE INVESTMENT IN THIS   PROBLEMSOLVING OVER THE COURSE OF MANY YEARS.

I DON'T LAY THIS AT THE FEET OF MR. BABCOCK.

TAKE THE BRUNT OF EFFECTS OF THIS.

I WOULD SAY TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION   THAT WE KNEW WAS EMERGING AND EMERGENT AND I THINK  THE LACK OF ININVESTMENT COMES FROM THE COUNTY'S   FAILURE TO AT ADEQUATELY TAX WEALTH AND USE THAT  WEALTH ADDRESS PUBLIC PROBLEM WASTE MANAGEMENT.

ADDRESS THAT POINT THAT YOU WERE MAKING, I DON'T  NECESSARILY THINK THAT WE QUALITY OF LIFE IS   IMPROVED OR NECESSARILY MORE POSITIVE AS A  RESULT OF HAVING THIS RELIANCE ONISM IMPORT.

SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR RETURN OR  RESTORATION OF MORE CIRCULAR ECONOMY.

SEEING CURRENT ECONOMIC CLIMATE  REMINDS US SO HEAVILY RELIANT   GLOBAL MARKETS AND GLOBAL SUPPLY CHAINS WE  ARE EXTREMELY VULNERABLE IN SO MANY WAYS.

SO THIS IS LARGER WASTE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM.

ECONOMIC SYSTEMS QUESTION AS WELL.

>>Lauren: THIS QUESTION IS FOR YOU.

VIEWER WROTE IN, GOLFER.

HE'S ASKING RISK OF EVEN ACQUIRING THE WRATH OF  FELLOW GOLFERS, LOOK INTO PURCHASING HAWAII COUNTY   CLUB, KUNIA GOLF COURSE FOR THE LANDFILL LOCATION?

>> OVER THE AQUIFER.

>>Lauren: SAME PROBLEMS.

>> SAME PROBLEMS.

>>Lauren: IF I CAN GET THROUGH  A COUPLE MORE LAST FEW MINUTES.

MICHAEL FROM MAUI ASKING ABOUT LOOKING AT MORE  CREATIVE WAYS TO MAKE FILTERS TO CREATE CLEAN   AIR LOOK AT MORE NEWER TECHNOLOGIES  KIND OF SIDING WITH PROFESSOR HERE.

MAYBE YOU CAN WEIGH IN ON THAT.

CITY GOING TO BE DOING THAT WELL?

>> YES.

DOING THAT.

DOING THAT YOU NO.

LONG RANGE PLANNING STUDY GOING ON.

DID WANT MENTION LANDFILL SITING NOW NOT   JUST MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE.

MOSTLY ASH.

SOME MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE HAS TO BE DIVERTED.

CONSTRUCTION AND DEMOLITION SOLID WASTE.

DEMOLITION WASTE GOES TO LANDFILL,  PVT PRIVATELY RUN LANDFILL IN NANAKULI   MAY HAVE FIVE YEARS LEFT OF REMAINING LIFE.

IF THAT CLOSES, WHEN THAT CLOSES,   THAT WASTE WILL COME TO THE CITY AS WELL.

ALL WASTE COME TO THE CITY UNLESS   THERE'S SOME OTHER PLACES FOR IT GO.

HAS BEEN FACTORED INTO THE SIZING OF THE   LANDFILL THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR.

>>Lauren: WILL THE PUBLIC STILL HAVE AN   OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN WITH WHERE WE ARE NOW WITH  THIS CURRENT SITUATION AS FAR AS WHAT THE NEXT AND   WHERE THE NEXT LANDFILL IS GOING TO BE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ONCE A SITE IS APPROVED, AN WE'RE ABLE TO  MOVE FORWARD WITH PERHAPS LAND PURCHASE   AND HAVE TO DO ENVIRONMENTAL  IMPACT STUDY, THEY'LL BE LOTS OF   PUBLIC HEARINGS AND DEBATE.

HAVE TO GET PERMITS.

FOR EXAMPLE, FROM THE LAND USE COMMISSION.

CONTESTED CASE HEARING SITUATION.

CAN LAST MULTIPLE DAYS.

LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY FOR INPUT THERE.

PUBLIC NOTICES THAT HAVE TO BE DONE.

LOTS OF STUDIES THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN.

BEFORE YOU CAN SITE AND BUILD A LANDFILL.

>>Lauren: WE MENTIONED 2,000 TONS OF TRASH.

IS THAT PER DAY.

>> PER DAY.

>>Lauren: INSANE.

WE KIND OF TOUCHED ON THAT.

FEW QUESTIONS AGO.

ARE THERE STEPS IN,   QUESTION FOR EVERYBODY, LAST FEW MINUTES  THAT WE HAVE HERE, WHAT WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE   OUR VIEWERS WHAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY DO TO TRY AND  REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF TRASH AND OUR CONSUMPTION?

GO AROUND THE TABLE IF ANYONE  HAS TIPS OR SUGGESTIONS.

>> REALLY DON'T HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE  TO REDUCE THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE.

THERE ARE ALTERNATE TECHNOLOGIES.

DR. ROGER MENTIONED THAT LOOKING NEW TECHNOLOGY.

A LONG RANGE PLAN.

2003.

CITY COMMISSIONED PLASMA ARC GASIFICATION STUDY.

HOW LONG IS THEIR LONG RANGE PLAN?

22 YEARS?

WE DON'T HAVE THAT TIME.

WE HAVE TO DECIDE WITHIN THE NEXT  YEAR OR TWO WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO.

AND I REALLY THINK WE CAN HELP THE COMMUNITY.

HELP THE PEOPLE, AS WELL AS USE GOOD TECHNOLOGY.

MODERN TECHNOLOGY.

TO EMERGE INTO THE NEXT PART OF THE CENTURY.

>>Lauren: I DO WANT TO SAY, I APPRECIATE YOUR  INSIGHTS AND I KNOW WE'VE GOTTEN COUPLE OF VIEWER   COMMENTS THAT ALSO AGREE AND ARE THANKFUL THAT  YOU'RE BRINGING UP SOME OTHER CREATIVE METHODS.

WITH THAT LAST QUESTION,  REPRESENTATIVE I WANT TO GO TO YOU.

ANYTHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO OUR VIEWERS.

>> YES.

FIRST THING WE THINK OF  SUSTAINING OUR LIVES IS FOOD.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT MY QUALITY OF LIFE  IMPROVED EATING IMPORTED AVOCADOS FROM MEXICO.

CAPACITY TO GROW FOOD HERE.

NUTRITIONALLY DENSE.

WAY OF CONTRIBUTING PARTICIPATING  IN MORE CIRCULAR ECONOMY.

START WITH FOOD SOURCES.

>>Lauren: WHAT WOULD THE SIERRA CLUB LIKE TO   TELL PEOPLE ABOUT OUR CONSUMPTION TRASH PROBLEM?

>> GET ENGAGED.

FIGURES OUT WHAT'S GOING ON  LEGISLATURE, CITY COUNCIL.

AS REPRESENTATIVE MENTIONED, THIS  IS SAY BIGGER THAN WASTE ISSUE.

SECURITY ISSUE.

AND SO WE NEED TO LOOK AT, WELL, INVESTMENTS   IN WASTE REDUCTION STRATEGIES RECYCLING POLICIES  THAT CAN FIX OUR LAND WITH THESE CHALLENGES.

SO MANY FAKE FARMS BLOWING UP, COST OF  AG FARMS, FARMERS CAN'T BE SUSTAINABLE.

REDUCE POPULATION CLOSE TO TODAY WITH NO INPUT.

STUDIES SHOW IF WE DO PIVOT BACK TOWARDS   TRADITIONAL FOOD SYSTEMS AND TRADITIONAL CROP  AND LAND USES, WE CAN ACTUALLY AGAIN FEED ABOUT   A MILLION OR SO FOLKS WITHOUT INPUT.

TAKE BIG CHANGES KIND OF CHANGES   WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE.

>>Lauren: TO TAKE A LONG TIME GET THERE.

SMALL STUFF.

MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I WISH WE HAD MORE TIME I KNOW THIS IS TOPIC  THAT IS SO MANY PEOPLE CLEARLY CARE ABOUT.

WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO FOUR OF  YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY TONIGHT.

MAHALO TO YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT, AND WE THANK OUR  GUESTS ‑ DIRECTOR OF HONOLULU’S  DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES, ROGER BABCOCK, AND  SIERRA CLUB OF HAWAII DIRECTOR WAYNE TANAKA, AND STATE  REPRESENTATIVE AMY PERRUSO AND UH MANOA PROFESSOR DR.  AMARJIT SINGH.

NO INSIGHTS NEXT WEEK, BUT  WE’LL BE HERE WITH AN IMPORTANT DISCUSSION ON  ILLEGAL FIREWORKS.

THE SITUATION HAS BEEN RAMPANT  FOR YEARS, BUT THIS PAST NEW YEAR’S EVE WAS DEVASTATING  AFTER SEVEN PEOPLE DIED, SIX OF THEM IN ONE INCIDENT  FOLLOWING AN ILLEGAL FIREWORKS EXPLOSION.

SO, IS IT A CRIME  OR CULTURE?

JOIN US NEXT WEEK FOR KAKOU:  HAWAII’S TOWN HALL.

PLEASE JOIN US THEN.

I’M LAUREN DAY FOR INSIGHTS ON  PBS HAWAII.

ALOHA!

HAVE A GREAT NIGHT.

¶¶