AND AS WE SAID EARLIER, THE ISRAEL-LEBANON FRONT IS INTENSIFYING.

THE IDF SAYS A THIRD SOLDIER WAS KILLED IN COMBAT AGAINST HEZBOLLAH IN SOUTHERN LEBANON ON WEDNESDAY.

THIS AS ISRAEL TARGETS BRIDGES OVER THE LITANI RIVER AND OCCUPIES THE AREA IN ORDER TO TRY TO CUT OFF HEZBOLLAH AND ISOLATE ITS STRONGHOLD.

KIM GHATTAS IS A LEBANESE JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR, AND SHE EXPLAINS THE CHANGING FACE OF THE MIDDLE EAST TO HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

KIM GHATTAS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FOR MOST OF OUR AUDIENCE, AS THE CONVERSATION HAS BEEN ABOUT THE WAR, IT'S BEEN ABOUT ISRAEL, IT'S BEEN ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, IT'S BEEN ABOUT IRAN, BUT LEBANON IS FACING A SIGNIFICANT CRISIS RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT HEARING ABOUT IT IN THE NEWS.

I'M HEARING THAT ALMOST A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION IS DISPLACED.

WE'VE GOT MORE THAN A THOUSAND PEOPLE KILLED, 2500 INJURED.

WHAT'S THE SITUATION LIKE IN LEBANON?

>> HARI, GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, AND THANKS FOR FOCUSING ON LEBANON, WHICH IS INDEED THE SECOND BIG WAR FRONT IN THIS REGIONAL CONFLICT.

I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT SINCE THE CEASEFIRE BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL, OR MORE SPECIFICALLY HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL IN NOVEMBER OF 2024, ISRAELI STRIKES AGAINST LEBANON HAVE CONTINUED ON A VERY REGULAR BASIS.

ALMOST 2,000 STRIKES IN JUST OVER A YEAR.

SO THOSE STRIKES DON'T MAKE HEADLINES EITHER BECAUSE THEY'RE SORT OF BAKED INTO THE NORMALITY OF THINGS.

BUT THEY HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT AND PAINFUL FOR LEBANON.

AND NOW THE COUNTRY FINDS ITSELF ENGULFED IN THIS NEW REGIONAL WAR WHERE ISRAEL HAS DIFFERENT OBJECTIVES ON THE REGIONAL FRONT AND IN LEBANON.

FOR LEBANON, AS YOU MENTIONED, THIS IS THE SECOND WAR IN JUST A YEAR AND A HALF.

A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION IS ON THE MOVE.

IT IS A HUGE STRESS ON THE LEBANESE AUTHORITIES, ON THE STATE COFFERS FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS ALREADY IN DIRE ECONOMIC STRAITS.

AND OF COURSE, ALSO, VERY DIFFICULT FOR LEBANESE SOCIETY TO BE ABLE TO ABSORB SO MANY PEOPLE ON THE MOVE.

IT'S CAUSING SOME TENSIONS BETWEEN COMMUNITIES, AND, OF COURSE, THERE IS TENSION AT A NATIONAL LEVEL ABOUT WHAT IS LEBANON'S ROLE IN ALL OF THIS.

>> SO WHAT DO THE PEOPLE FEEL MOST FRUSTRATED AT, I GUESS?

IS IT THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT?

IS IT ISRAEL?

IS IT THE UNITED STATES?

IS IT IRAN?

>> ALL OF THE ABOVE.

THE LEBANESE ARE REALLY FED UP WITH BEING A BATTLEGROUND FOR REGIONAL PROXY WARS OR REGIONAL CONFRONTATIONS.

THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN LEBANON I WOULD SAY A MAJORITY WHO ARE ANGRY AT HEZBOLLAH FOR HAVING LAUNCHED THOSE FIRST ROCKETS AT ISRAEL TO AVENGE THE DEATHS OF A FOREIGN LEADER, AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, THE SUPREME LEADER OF ISSUE.

THERE ARE EVEN THOSE IN HEZBOLLAH'S OWN COMMUNITY SAYING YOU DID NOT AVENGE ANY OF THE PEOPLE OVER THE LAST YEAR INVOLVED IN THESE ISRAELI STRIKES, BUT YOU LEBANESE PEOPLE, INCLUDING HEZBOLLAH COMBATANTS, AND YOU CHOSE TO AVENGE THE DEATH OF A FOREIGN LEADER.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER AND TENSION THERE, INCLUDING IN THE SHIA COMMUNITY WHERE HEZBOLLAH DRAWS MOST OF ITS SUPPORT.

THERE IS FRUSTRATION AT THE UNITED STATES FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING THE DETAILS AND THE NUANCES OF LEBANON'S POSITION AND THE DIFFICULTIES THAT IT IS FACING IN LIVING UP TO AND EXPECTATIONS BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

BUT I GUESS THERE IS FRUSTRATION AROUND THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S APPROACH TO THIS WAR.

AND THEN FINALLY THERE IS, OF COURSE, ANGER AT ISRAEL FOR CONTINUING TO BOMB LEBANON, INCLUDING INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND TALKING NOW ABOUT TAKING OVER SOUTHERN LEBANON AND CREATING A BUFFER ZONE THERE, UNINHABITABLE FOR ANYONE, THAT THEY COULD OCCUPY AND CONTROL IN THE LONG-TERM.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY ASTOUNDING IS ISRAEL HAS TRIED THIS BEFORE, AND IT DID NOT WORK.

IT HAD AN 18-YEAR- LONG OCCUPATION OF SOUTHERN LEBANON UNTIL IT WITHDREW IN 2000.

>> YOU WROTE RECENTLY IN THE FINANCIAL TIMES THIS KIND OF GOES BACK, THIS INTERRELATIONSHIP AND THIS ENTANGLEMENT BACK IN THE '70s AND '80s.

YOU HAD THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION IN '79, ISRAEL INVASION OF LEBANON IN '82.

HOW DID HEZBOLLAH THAT WE KNOW TODAY FORM FROM THOSE TENSIONS?

>> SO IF I MAY JUST ACTUALLY ADD A POINT, THERE IS ALSO FRUSTRATION WITH THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY FOR HAVING NOT DONE ENOUGH, AND THAT EVERYTHING THAT IT IS DOING NOW IS TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE, INCLUDING TRYING TO STAND UP FOR LEBANESE SOVEREIGNTY.

CALLING ON IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS TO LEAF THE COUNTRY, AND NOW CALLING ON THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR TO LEAVE AS WELL.

AND THE REASON WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO MENTION THIS IS BECAUSE IT TIES INTO THIS QUESTION NOW, HARI, WHICH IS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS, WHICH IS THAT IN THE 1970s AND EARLY '80s, LEBANON WAS A STAGING GROUND FOR ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAEL BY PALESTINIAN GUERRILLAS FROM THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION ORGANIZATION, LED AT THE TIME BYIAS BY BY YASAR ARAFAT.

FIGHTING WARS BY LEBANON.

AT THE TIME IT WAS SYRIA L THEY PRESS GANGED LEBANON INTO BECOMING THE BATTLEGROUND AND THE STAGING GROUND FOR THESE ATTACKS.

ISRAEL DECIDED TO INVADE LEBANON IN 1982 AND TO, IN THEIR WORDS, GET RID OF THAT PALESTINIAN THREAT ON ITS BORDER.

AND TO SOME EXTENT, THAT WAS A SUCCESSFUL MILITARY OPERATION, ALTHOUGH IT COST THOUSANDS OF LIVES IN LEBANON BECAUSE THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP DID GO INTO EXILE.

BUT TWO DAYS AFTER THE ISRAELI MILITARY OPERATION IN LEBANON STARTED, IRAN SENT REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS, HUNDREDS OF THEM, TO SYRIA AND THEN ON TO LEBANON TO EXPORT THEIR REVOLUTION AND FIGHT WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS THE ZIONIST ENEMY, PUSH AMERICA 80s OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THAT IS THE BIRTH OF HEZBOLLAH.

SO YOU MAY HAVE TACTICAL VICTORIES, AS WE'RE SEEING TODAY, IN THIS REGIONAL CONFRONTATION, BUT YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO THINK STRATEGICALLY LONG-TERM AT WHAT OTHER PROBLEMS YOU MAY BE CREATING.

>> SO HOW HAS HEZBOLLAH KIND OF EVOLVED OVER TIME, IF THAT WAS THEIR ORIGIN STORY?

>> THEIR ORIGIN STORY IS VERY MUCH A CREATION OF THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS IN LEBANON, A TOOL OF BOTH THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC AND ALSO AT THE TIME OF SYRIA'S PRESIDENT HAFEZ AL ASSAD TO FIGHT AGAINST ISRAEL.

AND THERE IS A WHOLE DECADE OF ATTACKS, INCLUDING THE BOMBINGS OF THE MARINES IN BEIRUT IN 1983, THE FRENCH PARATROOPERS AS WELL, AND ALSO, OF COURSE, A DECADE OF HOSTAGE-TAKING.

AND I WANT TO MAKE VERY QUICK MENTION HERE OF A SCANDAL KNOWN AS THE IRAN CONTRA SCANDAL IN WHICH AT THE TIME THE U. S. AND ISRAEL ACTUALLY GAVE WEAPONS TO IRAN IN THE 1980s TO TRY TO GAIN THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES IN LEBANON.

THERE IS ALSO THE LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THERE WHERE ISRAEL AND THE U. S. ACTUALLY IN SOME WAYS --IT'S TOO LONG FOR OUR SHOW NOW --ENABLED THE SURVIVAL OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

SO INITIALLY HEZBOLLAH STARTS OUT AS AN EXPORT OF THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION.

IT STARTS OUT AS FIGHTING AMERICA FIRST, AND THEN IT TURNS INTO WHAT MANY PEOPLE IN LEBANON DESCRIBED AS NATIONAL RESISTANCE, A LEGITIMATE RESISTANCE AGAINST ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF SOUTH LEBANON.

THAT IMAGE BEGINS TO CHANGE AFTER 2000 WHEN ISRAEL WITHDRAWS.

AND IT CHANGES DRAMATICALLY AFTER 2005 WHEN HEZBOLLAH FINDS ITSELF INVOLVED IN THE KILLING OF LEBANESE CITIZENS, INCLUDING FORMER LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER RAFIC HARIRI AND OTHER PERSONALITIES IN LEBANON.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE CRITICISM I GUESS IN HEZBOLLAH LIES TODAY IS THEY HAVE TRANSFORMED INTO A GROUP THAT USES VIOLENCE NOT JUST TO LIBERATE OCCUPIED LAND, BUT USES VIOLENCE AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE TO HOLD ON TO POWER.

>> SO KIM, IN 2023, HEZBOLLAH JOINED THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

NEARLY A YEAR LATER, ISRAEL CONDUCTED SEVERAL ATTACKS AGAINST HEZBOLLAH, FAMOUSLY, THE COORDINATED PAGER ATTACK THAT KILLED A DOZEN PEOPLE, INJURED MORE THAN 3,000 PEOPLE.

THEN THERE WAS A SERIES OF MILITARY STRIKES THAT EVEN TOOK OUT THE LEADER, HASSAN NASRALLAH.

THE IMPRESSION AT THE TIME WAS HEZBOLLAH WAS SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKENED.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> THAT WAS THE ASSESSMENT OF ISRAEL AT THE TIME, THAT THEY HAD BEEN, YOU KNOW, INCAPACITATED UP TO 70%, AND THAT THE REST OF THE 30% SHOULD BE HANDLED BY THE LEBANESE AUTHORITIES TO MAKE SURE THAT HEZBOLLAH WOULD NO LONGER REPRESENT A THREAT ON ISRAEL'S BORDER.

THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT TODAY IS BEING CRITICIZED FOR NOT HAVING DONE ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE THAT HEZBOLLAH IS NO LONGER --NO LONGER HAS THE CAPACITY TO STRIKE ISRAEL.

BUT WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT AND THE LEBANESE ARMY, WHICH IS TO DISARM --FORCIBLY DISARM HEZBOLLAH I THINK IS WRONG- HEADED, INCLUDING TODAY BECAUSE IT CAN LEAD TO INTERNAL STRIFE AND VIOLENCE.

WE'RE HEARING TODAY FROM HEZBOLLAH OFFICIALS THREATENING THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT FOR ITS CRITICISM OF HEZBOLLAH'S ACTIONS AND FOR ITS CALL FOR THE DEPARTURE OF IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS AND THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR.

SO THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT IS STUCK BETWEEN NOT EVEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE, BUT A ROCK AND A ROCK BETWEEN ISRAEL'S ACTIONS AND HEZBOLLAH'S THREATS, AND IRAN'S AGENDA IN LEBANON.

CAN IT DO MORE?

CAN THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT DO MORE?

I THINK SO.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD ASSIST THE LEBANESE AUTHORITIES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN PROVIDE FOR THE CITIZENS AT THIS VERY DIRE TIME AND OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE TO HEZBOLLAH WHEN IT COMES TO THE SHIA COMMUNITY.

AND ALSO ONE MORE POINT, HARI, THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT HAS OFFERED TO ENTER INTO DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL, WHICH IS A HISTORIC FIRST SINCE THE 1980s.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS DIVISIVE INSIDE LEBANON.

WHY WOULD WE NEGOTIATE WHILE WE'RE BEING BOMBED?

HEZBOLLAH, AS I SAID, IS ATTACKING THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT.

BUT IT IS A STEP THAT IS WORTHWHILE SUPPORTING WHEN IT COMES TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

>> SO WHY DIDN'T THE CEASEFIRE HOLD THAT FRANCE HELPED NEGOTIATE?

>> FRANCE AND THE U. S. AT THE TIME, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HELPED TO NEGOTIATE THAT CEASEFIRE.

AS I SAID, ISRAEL CONTINUED TO STRIKE LEBANON REPEATEDLY, SOMETIMES ON A DAILY BASIS IN THE SOUTH AND THE BEKAA VALLEY, BUT ALSO A FEW TIMES IN BEIRUT.

SO IT IS ISRAEL THAT IS ACTUALLY IN BREACH OF THE CEASEFIRE FROM DAY ONE.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT JUST EARLIER THIS WEEK.

FINANCE MINISTER SAID THE LITANI RIVER MUST BECOME OUR NEW BORDER WITH THE STATE OF LEBANON.

SO IS THE POINT HERE TO TRY TO INCREASE A GEOGRAPHIC BUFFER FOR THE SAFETY OF ISRAEL?

OR IS THIS A LAND GRAB?

>> IT'S A LAND GRAB.

IT'S A LAND GRAB.

AND THERE ARE DEEP FEARS IN LEBANON THAT ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, MILITARISTIC EXPANSIONIST APPROACH TO ITS REGIONAL POLICY IS GOING TO LEAD TO THIS LAND GRAB IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

AND, AGAIN, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE ISRAEL OCCUPIED SOUTHERN LEBANON BEFORE.

AND IT DID NOT WORK OUT.

IT DID NOT BRING SAFETY TO NORTHERN ISRAEL.

AND THAT'S WHY EVENTUALLY IN 2000, PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK AT THE TIME DECIDED TO WITHDRAW.

HE WITHDREW UNILATERALLY, AND I KNOW THAT THE REACTION IN ISRAEL IS WE WITHDREW AND WE LEFT AND WE GAVE YOU BACK YOUR LAND, AND ALL WE GOT WAS ROCKETS.

BUT UNILATERAL WITHDRAWALS ARE NOT A RECIPE FOR LONG-TERM SUSTAINABLE DIPLOMATIC SOLUTIONS.

WHICH IS WHY TODAY IT IS HISTORIC THAT THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT IS OFFERING THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THIS LAND GRAB, YOU KNOW, 10, 20, 30 KILOMETERS INTO LEBANON IS BELOW THE RANGE OF HEZBOLLAH'S ROCKETS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF THINGS GO TERRIBLY WRONG AND THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT IS NOT ABLE TO ASSERT ITS AUTHORITY ON THE WHOLE OF LEBANON'S TERRITORY, YOU COULD HAVE HEZBOLLAH ROCKETS STILL LANDING IN NORTHERN ISRAEL, EVEN IF THERE IS THIS BUFFER ZONE.

AND, AGAIN, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT FOR THE LONG-TERM, YOU NEED TO HAVE DIPLOMATIC CONVERSATIONS.

AND IT IS A BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL LAW TO OCCUPY AND, YOU KNOW, GRAB LAND LIKE THAT.

WHETHER IT'S FOR YOUR SAFETY OR FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS ARE MENTIONING.

>> SO IF YOU THINK THAT LEBANON NOW IS FACING ISRAEL, THAT IN SOME WAYS WANTS TO EXPAND THEIR TERRITORY, AND AT THE SAME TIME, IRAN DOES NOT HAVE THEIR EYE ON LEBANON LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE 25, 30 YEARS AGO, RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW IN AN ACT OF CONFLAGRATION WITH THE UNITED STATES AND REALLY A LOT OF THEIR NEIGHBORS.

>> WELL, ACTUALLY, HARI, IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS ARE OPERATING IN LEBANON.

THAT IS LEBANON'S DILEMMA RIGHT NOW.

IT IS STUCK BETWEEN THESE ISRAELI MILITARY AND TERRITORIAL DESIGNS AND AN IRANIAN REGIME THAT CARES VERY LITTLE ABOUT LEBANESE SOVEREIGNTY.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT PUSH BACK NOT ONLY AGAINST ISRAEL'S DESIGNS, BUT ALSO AGAINST IRAN'S, YOU KNOW, MILITARY OPERATIONS IN LEBANON VIA THESE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

SO WHEN HEZBOLLAH DECIDED TO LAUNCH THESE ROCKETS AT ISRAEL TO AVENGE THE DEATH OF ALI KHAMENEI, IT APPEARS THAT THE DECISION WAS TAKEN BY IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS TO ENTER THIS FIGHT BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY BORDER THAT IRAN IN A WAY CAN SHARE WITH ISRAEL THAT'S VIA LEBANON, RIGHT.

SO THE ASSUMPTION IN LEBANON IS THAT IT WAS AN IRANIAN DECISION TO PUSH HEZBOLLAH TO ENTER INTO THIS WAR.

AND THE ISRAELI STRIKES HAVE ALREADY KILLED SEVERAL IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS IN LEBANON OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

SO IRAN IS VERY MUCH SEEING LEBANON AS PART OF ITS REGIONAL EFFORTS TO PUSH BACK AGAINST AMERICAN INFLUENCE, TO FIGHT ISRAEL, AND TO GAIN LEVERAGE.

WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT AMERICA AND ISRAEL'S MILITARY SUCCESSES, SUCCESSES, TACTICS, ET CETERA.

BUT IRAN IS BUILDING LEVERAGE, INCLUDING THERE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

>> HAS THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT TAKEN STEPS TO DELEGITIMIZE HEZBOLLAH AND TRY TO DECREASE THE INFLUENCE OF IRAN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AS I MENTIONED, THEY HAVE FIRST OF ALL DECLARED HEZBOLLAH'S MILITARY AND SECURITY ACTIVITIES TO BE OUTSIDE OF THE LAW.

THEY HAVE ARRESTED SEVERAL MEMBERS OF HEZBOLLAH AND PUT THEM THROUGH TRIAL IN A MILITARY TRIBUNAL.

YOU KNOW, FOR SOME IT LOOKS MOSTLY SYMBOLIC, BUT IT IS STILL SOMETHING.

THEY HAVE, AS I SAID, CALLED ON IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

AND NOW THEY HAVE ASKED THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR TO LEAVE LEBANON AS WELL.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE TWO BIG SHIA PARTIES, HEZBOLLAH, BUT ALSO AMAL, WHICH IS LED BY NABI BARI, SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT, WHO HAVE COME OUT AND SAID WE REFUSE TO SEE THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

SO THIS IS NOT JUST A WAR THAT ISRAEL IS WAGING AGAINST LEBANON.

IT IS NOT JUST A WAR THAT IRAN IS CONDUCTING VIA LEBANON.

IT IS ALSO A WAR, A BATTLE FOR LEBANESE SOVEREIGNTY.

AND I HOPE THAT THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT WILL NOT STEP BACK FROM ITS DEMAND THAT THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR LEAVE THE COUNTRY, BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT HEZBOLLAH COULD DEPLOY VIOLENCE INTERNALLY TO IMPOSE THEIR VISION FOR HOW THIS SHOULD GO FORWARD.

AND THEY'VE DONE THIS BEFORE IN LEBANON USING VIOLENCE AGAINST THE LEBANESE AND THE LEBANESE STATE.

>> JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR KIM GHATTAS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.