♪ >> Welcome to Amanpour and Company.
Here is what is coming up.
Donald Trump has company as Ron DeSantis joins the other Republican hopefuls.
How will the presidential primary shape up?
Republican former Kentucky Secretary of State Trey Grayson joins me.
>> I don't think you are a big, bad master spy.
I think you just messed up.
>> "Reality," the complex story of NSA whistleblower Reality Winner.
Plus... one year after heartbreak and anguish, 19 children were among the 21 shot to death at this school in Uvalde and the parents of one of the survivors tells us how the town and the children have changed, perhaps forever.
And superstar singer Bryan Adams joins me with his peace anthem.
>> "Amanpour and Company" is made possible by Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III.
Candace King Weir.
Jim Attwood and Leslie Williams.
The family foundation of Leila and Mickey Straus.
Mark J. Blechner.
Seton J. Melvin.
Bernard and Denise Schwartz.
Koo and Patricia Yuen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities.
Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.
We try to live in the moment, to not miss what is right in front of us.
At mutual of America, we believe taking care of tomorrow and help you make the most of today.
Mutual of America financial group, retirement services and investments.
Additional support provided by these funders.
And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
>> Welcome to the program.
Here in the United States, the race for the Republican nomination for president is expanding.
Ron DeSantis is throwing his hat in the ring as has long been expected.
Donald Trump is still dominating the field and he has already spent millions attacking DeSantis.
What does this all tell us about the party and his priorities?
This is a form of Kentucky Republican Secretary of State and was also the head of Harvard's Institute of politics.
He is now a practicing attorney who has written about the need to protect poll workers and he is joining me now from Cincinnati, Ohio.
Welcome to the program, Mr. Grayson.
>> Thank you, good to be with you.
>> Everyone expected DeSantis to throw his hat into the ring.
How do you think DeSantis getting in will change this race?
>> It starts with the formal campaign season.
It has bent us silly season where Trump is in Canada but DeSantis has been focusing on the legislative session down in Florida, traveling here and there, doing some interviews.
He had not been a full-time candidate until today.
It gives him a chance to try out his messaging.
Make his case for Republican voters and it gives them a chance at a restart.
He has been declining in the polls over the last couple of months.
There was a lot of anticipation and excitement for him.
A campaign announcement does give you that restart.
He will be able to focus 100% on the campaign now.
>> I want to play a soundbite.
We know that he trounced his opponent in the last election for governor.
This is what he said last week.
>> We have set in Florida, we are going to remain refuge of sanity and a citadel of normalcy .
>> Let me feel that it's a little bit for the viewers.
He said that six week abortion ban which is not yet enacted.
There will be more power to carry concealed firearms without a permit.
It has been the silly season.
Does this kind of culture or that DeSantis seems to be backing on translate in a general election?
>> It is this risk because you don't get to the general election.
If you don't win the primary.
DeSantis seems to be betting on the fact that running to Trump's right on some of these policy issues on the cultural war would allow him to be the nominee.
He would probably have to pivot the election in the fall.
You have to win the primary first.
>> I guess they see their primary voters as well.
The scene showed something interesting.
One thing I found interesting is both of them, their support was pretty soft.
Over 80% for each candidate, the support in the polls essay we would be open to somebody else.
On the one hand he is trying to appeal to the mega folks.
But his other challenge is appealing to the part of the party that I am part of.
Those messages don't appeal to me.
I want a Republican who can win in the fall.
There is an electability argument that DeSantis is trying to make.
You might not say it much.
I think his hope is that when people talk about how he easily got reelected in a battleground state.
Surveys right now don't show them being more electable than Trump.
That is part of his argument.
Trying to do both at once.
It might be that there are just craters and he can't appeal on the right.
And he loses more educated voters in the suburbs and those are your swing voters in the fall.
They might not appreciate that cultural message and they might steer a Democrat and might look for a third party candidate or just not vote in the race.
>> There is obviously a long way to go.
It is only at the beginning right now.
What you talked about is an electable Republican.
Donald Trump is talking about that.
He is shifting and pivoting on the issue of restricting abortion.
He refused to say whether he would back a federal ban.
He actually talked about his views based on what to get a Republican elected.
Let's play this.
>> I am a person that feels exceptions are important for a lot of reasons but they are also important from the standpoint of an election.
If you don't have the exceptions, it is very hard.
I think that has been proven, it is very hard to win an election.
Click stay you have it.
It was proven in the last midterms as Trump candidates did not do as well as expected.
He did bring this up and go to the place where they were able to overturn Roe v. Wade.
How was this particular issue going to play out?
>> He is never worried about having a consistent ideology.
It is possible for him to pivot on abortion because he has greatly pivoted on abortion.
He is trying to have it both ways.
He is trying to appeal to the right to say that I am the one who delivered the repeal.
These are the justices are nominated because I one.
He is also trying to soften himself up.
He probably has an easier pathway to do it.
In some respects he is kind of like a president running for reelection.
We have not had this in modern American history where a president who lost a general election comes back four years later.
That is why is so hard for DeSantis.
This is still kind of Trump's party.
He has the possibility and a record to run on.
Does Republican primary voters deported him four years ago and according to surveys, they are still in his camp right now.
That is the challenge DeSantis is facing.
Then Trump sees this and he is pivoting to set up an electability argument in the fall.
He recognizes he cannot afford to lose any more support in the suburbs.
That is what caused him in 2020.
>> Let me ask you that.
I want you to weigh in on something I will quote you on, trumps policies.
They say on a host of subjects, trumps positions have become even more extreme.
His tone more confrontational, his account is less tethered to reality.
This basically describes him of -- how do you analyze the Trump you are seeing now?
>> I worry about the Trump I am seeing now.
He does seem more extreme in some of his views.
But think he also recognizes now that he has been away from the White House for four years the opportunities that maybe he missed out because of personnel selection.
They were Republican to put patriotism first.
Normalcy, governing appropriately.
That is where Trump represents a danger to the Republican party.
That is why people like me and others in the play would like to move on from Trump.
I do worry about it from 2.0 presidency.
Click to that end, you have written very extensively and you are looking very closely at the idea of protecting poll workers, election workers and the actual system, the integrity of the system.
The New York Times has said there is an under the radar push to restrict voting.
In town hall, Trump claimed the election was rigged.
Activists have worked to keep Florida election workers from harassment.
That is a nightmare scenario for democracy.
Is that a real threat for right now?
>> We are seeing maybe not quit or over that election workers but what clearly seeing is the retirement of people who have run elections for many years.
We are seeing poll workers and they are paid a little bit of money.
They are doing as a public service.
Remember the mother and daughter from Atlanta who were harassed, those were the ones on whom our election systems are built.
We are seeing supervisors and other election officials retire.
When that starts to happen, you have less experience when we get to the greater pressure of the presidential election, a higher turnout.
That is my fear, that all this pressure is going to cause some really good people to say I have something us I would rather do.
This is too hard.
Click that would be a nightmare scenario.
But are we cavalierly ignoring the other Republican candidates who have declared?
If they don't stand an actual chance, what is their value added right now?
Or do they stand a chance?
>> I would put Scott a little ahead of the other two.
He seems like you have more money and that will allow him to do more.
I think he has over $20 million left over from his Senate campaign so he can transfer that into us presidential account.
He could have an independent Super PAC that could back his campaign.
He will have a chance to get out there.
He has a very small sliver of support.
He is wanting to lean in.
Almost a Reaganesque type of message.
That is something that DeSantis has to figure out how to do, how do you blend the personal and the policy?
President Obama had that.
Successful politicians running for president have that.
Hutchison might impact the debate.
Hailey is probably running for vice president.
In some respects this race is set up as a two man race.
They'll have to get in front of DeSantis and DeSantis has a lot of things he manages.
My strongest support in the polls.
>> It is fascinating, we will keep watching.
Thank you very much for your knowledge and perspective.
Reality when it is a name that may be familiar to many people.
She made headlines in 20 after being arrested on charges of leaking classified information.
A former NSA contractor.
She was sentenced to more than five years in prison.
Delete document was about Russian interference in the 2016 election.
Now, her story is told in the new HBO film reality.
Here is a clip from the trailer.
>> 125 pounds, you guys laterally.
>> It was on your drivers license.
>> I lied.
>> Don't we all?
What if I said you printed out classified information?
The document made its way outside the NSA.
The most likely candidate as you.
>> I think you know a lot more than what you are telling us at this point.
>> Am not trying to be a whistleblower, that is crazy.
>> We have to figure out the why behind this.
Was there something?
Did it push you over the edge on this?
Question reality when it is now on supervised release in Corpus Christi Texas.
Tina is joining me here in New York.
Welcome both of you to the program.
Have you actually watched the film?
How do you think it portrays your interrogation?
>> With all due respect to Tina, I have not seen it and I will not see it.
Just listening to that brief clip, I can't relive that.
>> Let me ask you about that.
As a viewer, it was very ominous , watching your character be interrogated in a pretty bare home you have at that time.
You were surrounded by these FBI agent, all men.
It was quiet ominous.
Can you talk to us by what was going through your head at that time.
>> I think the greatest thing that was in my mind was the safety of my animals and the ever present awareness that surviving your own arrest in the United States of America is a privilege.
As these armed agents moved in and around my house, without knowing if I was under arrest or not, it was constantly replaying in my head.
The idea that one of my animals would get out and if I moved too quickly after my animals, I would be shot in the back.
There was the only thing on my mind.
Don't get shot.
>> It is really tough to hear you say that.
That is why traumatizing, thinking that as you are being interrogated, one wrong move might lead to your death.
What was it about this story that caused you to want to make a film about it?
Just these three hours, how did you know everything about the interrogation?
>> It was coming on the transcript at the time.
I was learning more about the reality.
I was learning about this fascinating and really strong young women.
This is this incredible person, the back story is really amazing.
At the same time, I came upon the transcript online.
I was like this is astounding.
This very specific moment in American life in 2017, I really want to use this to show her in her own words moving through this day that it is such a surreal and intense thing.
Again, she does it with this incredible character within herself and comes out on the other side of the break.
Horrifying consequences since that day but I was really impressed by her reality reading that transcript and taking there was something to show there.
>> Were you surprised?
>> It doesn't surprise me at all, I really admire that.
There is so much about this.
I very much understand and respect that.
Click the two of you did not collaborate on this right?
Reality was not brought in early.
>> I was in jail most of that time.
>> No attempt to visit her.
>> I did not get to see reality when she was in prison but when she was out in June of 2021, we finally got to be in touch which was incredible.
I had been talking to her throughout the process since then.
Click let's talk about the interrogation.
Here you are, and NSA contractor who in real life, you are a Farsi speaker.
He wanted to deploy, you are trying to get your extra clearance.
What made you decide to leak these documents and what were they about?
>> Those are two questions I honestly can't answer.
The letter because I am bound by a plea deal and I have briefly read that interrogation document and it does not refresh my memory as to why I actually did it.
It has been so covered up by trauma these past five years.
I don't even remember why.
It is hidden and buried.
>> Let me say from what we now know you are arrested for allegedly leaking classified intelligence report on Russian Hacks into the U.S. election infrastructure.
This all happens during the Trump presidency when this issue of Russia was playing out.
I wanted to say that in order to play this clip of the FBI agent, this one in particular by Sydney Sweeney about this and how they are trying to get the info out of you.
>> Reality, are you sure that's what you did?
You did not take it out of the building?
You do not give it to anybody?
You do not send it?
>> Not anyone?
>> Can you guess how many people might have pointed out that article?
That article has made outside of NSA.
Obviously because we are here.
The most likely candidate for a new way is you.
I don't think you are a big, bad, master spy or anything.
>> That is done.
Is that pretty accurate?
Was it more difficult?
Was it more intense their questioning?
They seem to be trying to be one with you, trying to draw you in in a friendly way although you always understand the underlying intention there to get active information.
>> I think that this particular encounter has been preprocessed so many times, just five days later in court, those agents on the stands said they were greatly afraid and that I was extremely dangerous that.
That is not how I remember it.
I remember being scared and speechless.
>> Do you remember the ark by which Christie denied everything and then you admitted it?
>> Right, I did not know that I had the right to request an attorney, I did not know that this was an interrogation and at that time you just feel so small and you want to say anything to stay alive.
>> I was wondering the whole way through why you did not say I can speak without my attorney.
Was that a question for you?
Related, there are bits in the transcript that are redacted.
You chose a cinematic way to blurt that out.
>> I always intuited reading this.
We have ended research.
It is kind of like a Catch-22 for a person like reality undergoing that.
I always sensed this person had to be thinking of a woman with those 11 men come into your house had to be really terrifying.
It really make sense as reality explains that horrifying feeling she lived through.
And then with the reductions, the reductions on the page, these big black bars withholding information and who has access to it, it is about power and disappearance.
It felt important to later in the idea of someone else saying who could be seen and heard when?
>> We mentioned that you were sentenced to five years.
It is really harsh according to our stats.
This is the heaviest sense to date imposed to leak classified documents.
The hardest part is not a punishment but just knowing you did really not change anything and nobody cares.
There are a lot of layers there but how did you deal with being sentenced to five years?
How are you treated in prison?
>> For me, personally, once you realize what the conditions are, you will survive that but I thought every single day with my eating disorder and there is no treatment and no escaping them.
For me, I spent five years trying to survive myself.
>> I just wonder, I think you are at home.
I think you are under supervised attention, not in jail, what do you want the message of this film to be?
The message of your story?
>> For me, I would just ask the audience to look at it with an open mind and to understand there is a very layered and gendered approach to this.
Had I been a white man or asserting my rights, it would have been applauded.
As a woman who complied with law enforcement, that made it even more insidious in the court.
As for whether or not that confession was thrown in a court of law, I must have understood I was free to leave at any time.
I asked the audience that if they put themselves in that character's shoes, do you feel free to leave at any time?
And that was a lawful interrogation?
I just question how much authority we are giving the FBI and law enforcement and how we would act in that situation and how we would save our own lives because it is really terrifying to later process that in a court of law and have everything I said and did used against me, weaponized against me as a woman.
But -- >> We wish you all the best in the future.
What do you hope, having heard what reality would like to say, what do you hope that the film does?
>> I think reality just set it most important thing as distinctly and incredibly.
I think the film is a chance to see her in her own words.
You see what she said that day.
You do get a sense of her character because of how specific she moved that moment has.
It does give you this landscape to look at in this close-up way exactly what reality is calling out.
This is on a day in the United States in 2017.
This is how they approach this conversation with this young woman and this is how it unfolded.
They really say that with an open mind and some larger assembly and empathy to what all the humans moving through that -- that is going to hope the people take from it.
>> As we say in the introduction, these papers that relate did refer to something that did happen, Russian interference in the election.
Security -- prefer this government.
Thank you for being with us.
Today works one year since the 19 elementary school children and two teachers were killed in Uvalde, Texas.
While the security failures are still being scrutinized, Galen Gonzalez, a 10-year-old survivor of the attack has been speaking out against gun violence here in the U.S.. She hopes such a tragedy can be prevented in the future.
Her parents now speak about how they have been coping in the aftermath.
>> Thank you.
Thank you both for joining us.
You are the parents of 10-year-old Caitlin and she was in elementary school that day when so many of her friends were gunned down.
Now here we are about a year later and we are talking and I just want to know how she is doing.
>> At the one-year mark, now that the one year mark is today, I guess it is we have all just been stuck on May 24 so she has been taking the days as they come.
There was an increase in symptoms associated to PTSD that were manifesting as there when your approach.
We tried to be with her every day as she pushes through.
>> What is she like now since in this past year, compared to the day that you dropped her off?
>> I think she has had to do a lot of growing up since May 24, prior to that, she has always been that outgoing, spontaneous, very charismatic little girl.
She has also been looking into other data into learning about the mass shootings.
She has come across and met a lot of mass shootings survivors.
What 11-year-old is that?
Nowadays it has become her new norm and this is what surviving a mass shooting does to a victim.
>> She lost her best friend, Jackie.
Tell me how PTSD -- how does this manifest itself in your daughter on a day-to-day basis?
>> There are a lot of triggers.
Any little bump, anything will trigger it, sirens.
She is just concerned, what was that noise?
I am a veteran and I feel like she should not feel that way here in the United States.
She should have the freedom to feel safe.
But she doesn't, she has lost all respect work law enforcement because in her mind, she feels they failed.
It has been proven that they failed.
No other mass shooting has this.
To me, it is just a lack of courage, that was the only excuse.
>> Do you see improvement?
Things your daughter could not do a few months ago that she is able to do now?
>> It might seem like little improvements to somebody else but to us they are huge improvements.
My wife slept with her for nine months after the shooting.
She was just paranoid and we have seen now she is able to sleep by herself, she had to have her whole room lit up because she is afraid of the dark and little by little she has been dimming those lights.
We have seen improvements but she still needs more.
>> I'm assuming that is a veteran, you have had friends in the service you know that have suffered from PTSD, to see your daughter go through this, what is that like?
>> I feel that she has been robbed of her childhood because first she had to deal with the pandemic and then the shooting and these things -- I don't think a 10 year old should go through this stuff.
I feel that she has been robbed of her childhood and now she has taken another road to become an activist.
I wish he had never gone through this so she could live her child life.
>> What is it when you talk to her, what is motivating her to do this?
A lot of 10 and 11-year-olds, this is not their interest or direction.
A lot of adults don't want to speak in public in front of people and your daughter is standing in front of legislators.
Speaking publicly and advocating.
Question feels that no child should go to school scared.
She won't back down.
She is committed to this and that is surprising to us, we never saw the side of her.
Having such an interest in this.
It all comes from her, we don't pressure, she's the one in total control.
If you ever feel like she doesn't want to do anything, we don't do it.
We are just there to take her to Washington.
To Austin, the Capitol, this is all she wants to do, she demands these changes.
>> One of the changes you're advocating for?
>> We are advocating for gun reform.
We are by no means trying to take away the guns of law-abiding citizens.
That is one thing we have heard.
We are trying to infringe on your Second Amendment.
He was able to purchase assault weapons.
Had he been 21, he would not have been able to.
We want background checks, something we can meet halfway.
We know that Texas is a gun loving state.
Making changes like this will be hard.
But that is not something we are willing to back down on.
>> In Texas, there was a proposal to try to move the age of acquired weapon from 18 to 21.
It did not make it.
How did you all take that?
Because it was a disappointment.
Because my ultimate goal is been all assault weapons.
I have handled these weapons in the military.
They are not toys.
They just belong in war.
I don't see the purpose of us having them here.
I am willing to compromise.
We are not asking for much.
From 18 to 21, I just feel that any changes we do, it will be a positive change.
If we don't have any changes, we will have the same result.
I just feel I can't accept as being our lifestyle in the United States, or norm.
It is unacceptable for me.
>> I have spoken to different survivors of these incidents and when I speak to the kids, one of the things the kids say is grown-ups push back at them and say you have been caused by your parents or you are part of and as I gun lobby.
Have you or Kayla based that kind of criticism?
I would say there has been more positive feedback than negative.
However, there is a small amount of people that have made some comments as to we have coaster or written her speeches and to them I say it is totally fictitious.
Never have we coaster or pushed her into speaking at any of the rallies or local school board meetings.
We were never want to speak out.
We were never political by any means.
We never considered ourselves activists.
She was affected in such a big way, it affected our family, it pushed us to want to make changes.
For the families and their children.
>> Has the community grown closer?
Are there different divisions?
>> Initially, we felt very united, the whole community came together.
Everybody helping each other.
Grieving and now it seems there is division in our community.
I don't understand why that division.
We are all here together and we are trying to reach a certain goal, why is there division?
>> Why are people divided?
>> The one that bothers me the most is that there are some people that think some of these kids are not victims.
I feel everybody is a victim even if you weren't there, we are victims of this gun violence and I just don't see why there is that division.
>> Do you feel that people have said Kayla was a victim because she was in shock?
>> There has been talk and quit honestly, just the mere fact that she had to escape through a window, that to me is a survivor.
No she wasn't physically shot, she escaped with some bruises and scrapes but the mental scars, she is living with PTSD and anxiety and she is just one of many victims that day.
>> Can you tell me how does a little girl process the loss of her best friend in this way?
What does she do on a daily or weekly basis?
How often is she thinking about Jackie or visiting her grave?
I don't know how a little child would do this.
>> I would say she is -- I have a daily reminder of them.
I can just imagine her.
I am sure she things about them on a daily basis and just yesterday, we were talking about going in a cemetery.
We know that is a play she is going to be going to.
As hard as it is to comprehend, the cemetery has become a place for comfort because those were her friends are resting.
Still, there are times when she likes to go bike riding and go play ball and blow bubbles.
For an ordinary person, it brings sadness and I am sure she knows the sadness.
>> What do you hope your daughter?
Given we are when you're away and you don't see the town healing in the way it did immediately after the shooting?
>> Changes, we need changes, that is what I'm hoping she gets and we all get.
I want her to go back to her normal self and realistically I think we won't get that child back after May 24.
It saddens me because to me, as a father, I am a protector, a provider.
I feel like I failed as a father as protecting her.
I work for a school district as a plumber.
I guarantee you if I was there I would have done something to stop that threat.
After the shooting, I felt guilty, I felt I should have been there.
I feel like I should have protected these could somehow and I felt guilty, bothered.
I feel a little different now but it just bothers me I wasn't there.
Quick those were the parents of Caitlin Gonzales, survivor of the Robb Elementary shooting.
Thank you for joining us.
>> What terrible pain.
And tonight, the unconscionable attack, the devastation these weapons because in war, especially gun civilians as Caitlin's father pointed out, himself a military man.
My next guest has been writing and producing hit songs for more than four decades.
His latest ballot is for world peace.
His rock anthems have reached number one in over 40 countries including his iconic tune Summer of 69.
Now he is back on tour with his new song.
Brian Adams, welcome to the program from Toronto.
We are coming to you after a terribly sad story of the way weapons are used in the United States with no ability to stop them.
We heard the case of a child survivor in Uvalde, Texas.
I wonder if that plays into your mind when you think of the ballad you have just written for world peace.
>> I was listening to the program and it was enormously sad.
I feel great pathos for the families that have to go through this but I feel the same for the people that are victims of war.
I have been writing songs on and off for decades about this.
After the 80's there seems to be a time where we were rolling from one word to the next.
I wrote this song called what if there were no signs at all and I didn't know white when the best time to put it out would be so I put it out now as we start rolling into another set of conflicts.
>> I will play a clip from it.
It is very evocative.
I think your message definitely gets through.
Let's play a clip of what if there were no signs at all?
You said you wrote it a few years ago, what was the underlying war you were reflecting on at that time?
>> At the time, I think what I might have been thinking were the various conflicts at the time, Iraq, Gaza.
I did a book called wounded the legacy of war.
I was thinking about my father because my father was in the British army as were many of my family.
My father ended up being a peacekeeping observer for the Indian Pakistan were for the 1960's and my mother and I talk about it now and how he came back a different person from that conflict.
Difficult for an officer who graduated to become a peacekeeping observer because you don't have the opportunity to use the skills you were taught as a military man.
So when I think about what he endured and at the time, PTSD did not really exist.
There was no labeling for it at the time.
We knew he changed but we did not know why or what happened.
I kinda feel it is a tribute to my father but also, it is my reflection on what has been happening for decades and decades.
Why are we always in these conflicts?
What are we achieving?
Why can't we all just get along?
I know it is a very utopian thought to try to push this on everybody but I believe we should be at peace talks right now.
We should not be arming everybody, we should be sitting down at the table and getting this sorted out.
>> Many people in the world would agree with you, the total of work is extensive, I didn't actually know about your book because we interviewed about it.
I came to the gallery in London where you are observing the legacy photos.
It was very powerful and you are showing so many of those wooded warriors at the time from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Was it a reaction that you got from putting out the stories of the wounded were often pushed aside into their own homes who suffer from depression after all the injuries they have taken?
>> It got a lot of good exposure at the time.
All the proceeds from that book went to the various charities that help the wounded and a lot of people after the fact contacted me.
This one was a one off.
What is interesting also about that book is that the group of soldiers that became part of that book have actually met at times afterwards.
They have bit of a clan.
>> You are actually now on tour with your 15th album.
As we mentioned in the introduction, it is called so happy it hurts.
You wrote it during the pandemic.
I am just focusing on the title because it is so radically joyful what we have just been talking about.
What is making you so happy that it hurts?
>> Getting out and doing what I do.
I think music is a great with these.
Somehow a great healer.
I like to push that forward.
The idea that we came out of this darkness and into the light and I want to just promote happiness and peace.
>> You are doing it and you have done for us tonight and for all of our viewers.
Thank you very much indeed.
That is it for our program tonight.
If you want to find out what is coming up on the show, sign up for our newsletter at PBS.org, thank you for watching and join us again tomorrow.