>> IT WAS A MOMENT THAT SHOCKED NEW YORK AND DIVIDED A NATION.

IN 1984, BERNIE GOETZ OPENED FIRE ON FOUR BLACK TEENAGERS HE CLAIMED WERE TRYING TO ROB HIM.

AT A TIME WHEN FEAR OF RISING PRIME WERE IDENTIFY, SOME SAW HIM AS A HOMETOWN HERO NAMING HIM THE SUBWAY VIGILANTE.

WHILE OTHERRING CONDEMNED WHAT THEY SAW AS AN ACT OF RACIAL VIOLENCE.

NOW ELLIOT WILLIAMS IS INVESTIGATING THIS CASE AND SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT WHY THIS STORY RESONATES TODAY.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> IN THIS BOOK, YOU ARE REVISITING ONE OF THE MOST EXPLOSIVE, DIVISIVE CASES IN NEW YORK FROM THE MID 80s .

I AM SAYING NEW YORK, BUT THIS GAME A NATIONAL ISSUE.

WHAT DREW YOU TO IT?

>> IT IS PART OF ME GROWING UP, MICHELLE, I GREW UP, I WAS BORN IN BROOKLYN AND GREW UP NOT FAR FROM THE CITY.

THERE IS AN ANECDOTE, THAT MY FIRST MEMORY OF THE CASE WAS THE STORY ON THE NIGHTLY NEWS THAT BERNIE GOETZ WAS A MUSE FOR HIP HOP.

WHY HAS THIS STORY STAYED WITH US AND WHY HAS BILLY JOEL INCLUDED THE NAME BERNIE GOETZ IN HIS SONG?

THERE ARE ASPECTS OF THIS CULTURE THAT RESONATE WITH US TODAY.

>> SO REMIND PEOPLE OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>> OKAY.

SO, WHAT IS NOT DISPUTED IS THAT BERNHARD GOETZ SHOOTS FOUR UNARMED BLACK TEENAGERS ON A SUBWAY TRAIN HE CLAIMED WERE TRYING TO MUG HIM.

HE RAN TO NEW HAMPSHIRE, WAS ON THE RUN NINE DAYS AND ULTIMATELY TURNED HIMSELF IN.

WHEN HE CAME BACK, HE WAS HERALDED AS A HERO BUT A BIG SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION AND IT WAS A POLARIZING CASE ABOUT SELF-DEFENSE IN NEW YORK IN ONE OF ITS ROUGHEST TIME IN HISTORY WHEN CRIME RATES WERE THROUGH THE ROOF.

>> WHO IS BERNHARD GOETZ?

I THINK MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOT HEARD OF HIM IN YEARS AND SOME MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO KNOW HE IS STILL ALIVE.

YOU HAD A LENGTHY CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

WE'LL GET TO THAT LATER.

BUT WHO IS BERNHARD GOETZ AND WHO WAS HE THEN?

>> HE WAS A QUIRKY, ODD LONER, A MAN WHO LIVED IN NEW YORK CITY.

37 AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING.

JUST, AN ODD INDIVIDUAL.

HIS NEIGHBORS WOULD SAY HE WAS IMMENSELY FRIENDLY ONE DAY, AND ODD AND DISMISSIVE ANOTHER DAY.

QUIRKY, HYPERKINETIC CLENCHED FISTS WALKING THROUGH HIS BUILDING BUT THE ONE ISSUE THAT SEEMED TO RILE HIM UP WAS PUBLIC SAFETY AND CRIME.

YOU COULD JUST SAY THE WORLDS CRIME OR DRUGS OR DRUNKS ON THE STOOP AND HE WOULD JUST GO OFF.

AND THIS GOES BACK TO EVEN THE 1980s , HE HAD BEEN MUGGED QUITE VIOLENTLY A FEW YEARS BEFORE THIS SHOOTING AND WALKED THE STREETS OF NEW YORK, NEVER LEFT HOME WITHOUT AN UNLICENSED FIREARM.

HE ALWAYS HAD THIS HANDGUN ON HIM.

AND TO SOME EXTENT, IT WAS ALWAYS A MATTER OF WHEN, NOT IF HE WOULD USE IT ON SOMEBODY.

>> SO WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT SUBWAY CAR?

SET THE SCENE FOR US?

>> NEW YORK CITY WAS AT ITS ROUGHEST, QUITE POSSIBLY EVER.

JUST TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE, BACK THEN, THE HOMICIDE RATE IN NEW YORK CITY WAS ABOUT 2,000 HOMICIDES A YEAR, 2,000 MURDERS A YEAR.

IT IS ABOUT 300 NOW.

IT IS JUST, ROUGH, AN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAY TO MOST MODERN THINKERS OR VIEWERS OR AUDIENCES, RIGHT?

AND THE SUBWAY WASN'T IMMUNE.

IT WAS ROUGH, PEOPLE WERE OFTEN ASSAULTED, MUGGED, PURSES GRABBED ON THE SUBWAY.

SO THAT'S THE BACKDROP.

HE GOT ON THE SUBWAY CAR, AND ONE OF THE FOUR YOUNG MEN, TROY CANTE, ASKED HIM OR DEMANDED FOR $5.

THAT IS NOT CLEAR, AND THAT WAS NEVER QUITE ESTABLISHED.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, GOETZ THOUGHT HE WAS BEING MUGGED AND NEW YORK LAW ALLOWS IF SOMEONE BELIEVES REASONABLY THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE THE VICTIM OF A ROBBERY CAN USE DEADLY FORCE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

SO HE FELT EMPOWERED TO DO SO, THOUGHT A MUGGING WAS IMMINENT.

EVEN SAID, EVEN IF THE GUY JUST SAYS HI TO YOU, SOMETIMES YOU KNOW THOSE WORDS, HELLO, MIGHT BE AN ATTEMPT FOR A MUGGING.

PULLED OUT HIS GUN AND OPENED FIRE ON THE FOUR BOYS IN RAPID SUCCESSION.

>> AND YOU SAY BOYS.

WERE THEY BOYS?

>> THEY WERE 18 AND 19 YEARS OLD.

THAT IS A FAIR QUESTION.

IT IS THE QUESTION OF HOW TO REFER TO THEM.

I USE THE TERM TEENS IN THE BOOK, OR YOUNG MEN, BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THEIR TEEN YEARS BUT STILL ADULTS AND WE SHOULD BE FAIR IN CHARACTERIZING THE GOOD AND THE BAD IN ALL OF THIS.

BUT, BOYS CAME OUT THERE, SOME PEOPLE HEARD OF THEM AS KIDS.

I DID NOT IN THE BOOK.

>> ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, THIS CASE BECAME MORE THAN A CASE.

IT BECAME MORE THAN ONE INCIDENT.

SO I WANT TO ASK ABOUT BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHY DID THIS THING BLOW UP INTO THIS MYTHIC THING AND WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE SAYING?

>> SO LET'S REWIND.

THE FILM DEATH WISH HAD COME OUT.

AND WITHIN DAYS OF THE SHOOTING, THE NEXT DAY, EVEN BEFORE ANYBODY KNEW WHO BERNHARD GOETZ WAS, THE POST STARTED RUNNING GRAPHICS CALLING HIM THE DEATH WISH VIGILANTE AND SHOOTER.

THERE IS A MYTH IN AMERICAN POPULAR CULTURE OF THE NOBLE VIGILANTE T MAN WHO STEPS IN, USUALLY A WHITE MAN, WHO STEPS IN, AND FILLS THE VOID WHERE POLICE CANNOT.

AND THAT WAS AN ATTRACTIVE FANTASY TO MANY PEOPLE.

AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN AT THE TIME.

THE POLICE SET UP A TIP LINE NINE DAYS BEFORE THEY CAUGHT BERNHARD GOETZ.

THE PHONE CALLS WERE ALL IN SUPPORT OF THE SHOOTER.

SUGGESTING HE RUN FOR MAYOR, THAT HE SHOULD RUN FOR OFFICE.

THAT HE IS A HERO.

I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING IN THE SAME POSITION AND SOMETHING ABOUT HIM TOUCHED A NERVE IN PEOPLE.

AND IT WAS SUCH AN EASY NARRATIVE TO BUILD.

THEY WERE BLACK TEENAGERS, THEY WERE OSTENSIBLY MUGGING HIM.

HE WAS AN OTHERWISE LAW- ABIDING, MEEK, WHITE, ENGINEER, AND IT WAS, THE NARRATIVE JUST TOOK OFF AND TOOK HOLD THAT IN A CITY IN WHICH ELECTED OFFICIALS CANNOT KEEP US SAFE T PERSON DID WHAT NEED TODAY BE DONE.

AND THAT NARRATIVE TOOK HOLD AND THERE WAS NO GETTING OFF IT ONCE IT DID.

>> SO MANY CASES COME TO MIND.

THE STORY OF KYLE RITTENHOUSE.

HE DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO GO HELP THE POLICE AND WOUND UP SHOOTING SOMEBODY.

AND THE MORE RECENT CASE OF THE MAN WHO CHOKED THIS GUY OUT ON A SUBWAY WHO WAS FRIGHTENING PEOPLE BECAUSE HE WAS SORT OF A MICHAEL JACKSON IMPERSONATOR.

MAYBE PEOPLE THINK THIS IS ANALOGOUS TO LUIGI MANGIONE WHO SHOT THIS UNITED HEALTH CARE CEO ON THE STREET.

ALLEGEDLY BECAUSE HE IS ANGRY WITH THE WAY THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS TREATING AMERICANS.

SO, TALK ABOUT IF YOU WOULD, ARE THERE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THIS CASE THAT TOOK HOLD?

BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS COVERED?

ARE THERE THINGS, IS THERE A VARIANCE FROM REALITY?

>> THERE WAS A RUSH TO DEMONIZE THE FOUR YOUNG MEN.

CASE IN POINT, WITHIN DAYS OF THE SHOOTING, THIS NOTION THAT THEY WERE ARMED TOOK OFF AND NEWSPAPERS RAN WITH THIS NOTION THAT THEY WERE ALL CARRYING SHARPENED SCREWDRIVERS, THAT THEY BRANDISHED AS WEAPONS IN AN ATTEMPT TO MUG BERNHARD GOETZ.

THESE YOUNG MEN ALWAYS HAD COPIOUS AND SOMETIMES QUITE AWFUL CRIMINAL RECORDS.

BUT THEY WERE NOT CARRYING WEAPONS AT THE TIME.

THEY DID HAVE SCREWDRIVERS ON THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING DOWNTOWN TO BREAK OPEN VIDEO GAME MACHINES TO STEAL THE QUARTERS.

STILL A CRIME, BUT, NOT ARMED IN AN ATTEMPT TO ATTACK BERNHARDEDGE.

WHEN PEOPLE COME AT ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND OH THIS GUY WAS A HERO.

PEOPLE STILL SAY, THESE WERE FOUR GUYS CARRYING WEAPONS TO ATTACK BERNHARD GOETZ.

SO A LOT OF THOSE TOOK OFF.

AND AS I SAID A MOMENT AGO, WERE JUST EASY NARRATIVES FOR PEOPLE TO LATCH ONTO.

OF COURSE THESE FOUR YOUNG BLACK GUYS FROM THE BRONX WERE ARMED AND ATTACKING A WHITE MAN WHO WAS DEFENSELESS ON THE SUBWAY.

OF COURSE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED.

BECAUSE THAT IS JUST AN EASY NARRATIVE FOR SOCIETY.

>> YOU WRITE THE NICKNAME SUBWAY VIGILANTE ROMANTIZES GOETZ.

HE WAS NEVER THE SUBWAY TERROR OR ASSASSIN OR ANYTHING LESS AMBIGUOUS.

SEGMENTS OF AMERICA LOVE THE IDEA OF A VIGILANTE WHO ACTED NOT BECAUSE HE WANTED TO, BUT BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THE NOTION HAS SUCH STAYING POWER?

I'M MENTIONING SOME OF THESE OTHER CASES THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE NEWS SUBSEQUENTLY INCLUDING LUIGI MANGIONE.

PEOPLE ARE CALLING HIM A VIGILANTE.

AVENGING THE VULNERABLE.

LUIGI MANGIONE.

RACE IS NOT A FACTOR THERE, RACE WAS A FACTOR HERE.

HOW DO YOU THINK RACE WAS A FACTOR HERE?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY WAS.

I ALMOST INVITE REEDERS TO SEARCH YOURSELF AND ASK THE QUESTION.

IF YOU HEARD A STORY ABOUT A SHOOTING WHERE A MIDDLE-AGED BLACK MAN SHOT FOUR WHITE 18 AND 19-YEAR-OLDS, PEOPLE ALWAYS REFLECTIVELY SEEM TO SAY OH I WOULD REGARD IT THE SAME WAY.

BUT THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE, MICHELLE.

IT IS JUST NOT.

AND THIS IS THE WHOLE NOTION OF WHAT WE ALL HAVE KICKING AROUND IN THE BACK OF OUR BRAINS IMPLICITLY.

SO WHAT CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS WERE UP FRONT ABOUT SAYING LOOK, THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF THESE YOUNG MEN OR THEIR ACTIONS OR AN EXONERATION OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

BE IF THESE WERE WHITE TEENAGERS AND A BLACK ADULT, THE WORLD WOULD SEE THIS DIFFERENTLY.

IT IS STILL A CRIME.

IT WOULD PROBABLY STILL BE PROSECUTED BUT THE WAY EVERYTHING FROM THE MEDIA TO THE WAY THE JURY REGARDED THE CASE WOULD HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

>> YOU POINTED OUT THAT GOETZ WAS A BIGOT.

WAS, IS, A BIGOT.

IT CAME OUT AT TRIAL THAT HE MADE RACIST REMARKS, BUT THEN, THAT REALLY TURNS ON THIS QUESTION OF DID HE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE AFRAID?

AND IF SO, ON WHAT BASIS?

>> SO I WOULD SAY THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT HE HAD, IS BEING A BIGOT A BINARY, EITHER YOU ARE OR YOU AREN'T.

THERE IS NO QUESTION.

AS YOU SAID, HE USED THOSE ETHNIC SLURS UNAMBIGUOUSLY ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF A NEIGHBORHOOD.

EVEN WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, TALKING TO HIM, I WAS STUNNED BY THE LANGUAGE HE WAS WILLING TO USE ON THE PHONE WITH ME.

NOW.

>> DID HE KNOW YOU ARE BLACK?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I SENT HIM MY BIO AND HE READ THE BOOK.

WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGE I'M A BLACK PERSON.

THERE IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF ME IN THE BOOK.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID.

THAT IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.

>> BUT HE WAS VERY FREE WITH HIS REMARKS IS WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME.

>> HE WAS FREE IN HIS REMARKS ABOUT THE THINGS THE BLACKS WERE DOING AND THIS IS WHAT THE BLACKS DO.

AND HE KEPT SAYING THAT.

SO, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT KNOCKING AROUND IN HIS MIND, AND PART OF HIS FEAR WAS OF BLACK PEOPLE.

>> SO FAST FORWARD.

WHAT ACTUAL HAPPENED?

>> HE ENDS UP GETTING ACQUITTED OF VIOLENT CRIME CHARGES AND THEN ONLY CONVICTED OF THE GUN POSSESSION CHARGE.

I SAID HE WAS CARRYING AN UNLICENSED FIREARM.

ACKNOWLEDGED IT WAS UNLICENSED.

EVERYONE KNOWS HE WAS CARRYING IT BECAUSE HE SHOT FOUR PEOPLE WITH IT SO HE ENDS UP GETTING ACQUITTED.

>> AND SERVED TIME.

SERVED EIGHT MONTHS.

WAS SUED IN CIVIL COURT BY AT FIRST ALL FOUR, BUT THE MOST SERIOUSLY INJURED OF THE FOUR.

>> ONE FACTOR I LEFT OUT.

SO, THE THREE END UP AS FAR AS GUNSHOT WOUNDS GO, NOT ULTIMATELY THAT SERIOUSLY INJURED.

THEY ALL ENDED UP OKAY.

ONE OF THEM WHO HE SHOT TWICE SAYING YOU DON'T LOOK SO BAD, HERE IS ANOTHER BEFORE SHOOTING HIM A SECOND TIME, HE ENDED UP PARALYZED FROM THE CHEST DOWN AND BRAIN DAMAGED.

HE WINS A $43 MILLION SETTLEMENT FROM GOETZ WHICH BERNHARD GOETZ HAS NOT YET PAID AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE FOUR YOUNG MEN, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO INTERVIEW THEM.

IN PART BECAUSE TWO OF THEM ARE DECEASED RIGHT?

SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

>> I TRIED TO RECREATE THEIR STORIES AS BEST I COULD WITHOUT INTERVIEWS WITH THEM.

I GOT AS FAR AS SPEAKING TO TWO OF THE SISTERS OF ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN.

ONE ENDED UP DIES IN PRISON IN 2018.

ONE SORT OF, THE MOST TRAGIC OF THE STORIES ENDS UP DYING IN AN APPARENT SUICIDE ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE SHOOTING.

THE 27th ANNIVERSARY OF THE SHOOTING.

ONE ENDS UP BRAIN DAMAGED AND ONE SEEMS TO HAVE SOMEWHAT MOVED ON WITH HIS LIFE.

I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS CURRENT EXISTENCE.

HE MOVED OUT OF THE CITY, DOESN'T LIKE COMING BACK AND WORKS AS AN AUTO MECHANIC.

>> THIS WASN'T JUST ONE CASE.

THIS CASE IS LIKE OTHER CASES WHERE IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE FACTS THEMSELVES IT IS, YOU USED THIS TERM YOURSELF.

IT WAS A RORSCHACH TEST.

OF WHAT SAFETY MEANS.

WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO FEEL SAFE?

WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR LACK OF SENSE OF SAFETY?

ET CETERA.

SO WHAT ARE YOU LEFT WITH?

AND IT HAS TO BE SAID WITH YOUR SORT OF HISTORY AS A FORMER PROSECUTOR.

>> THINGS ARE JUST MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE ALLOW THEM TO BE AND THAT WE ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT.

I THINK BERNHARD GOETZ IS A MORE COMPLICATED FIGURE THAN THE WORLD SAW.

EVERYBODY SAW THIS AVENGING HERO.

I SAW FROM INTERVIEWING HIM AND BEING EMAIL BUDDIES WITH HIM, IN SOME BIZARRE WAY, AN ODD, ANGRY, COMPLEX MAN.

THESE WERE YOUNG MEN WITH FAMILY HISTORIES AND SO ON, BUT BECAME THE FACE OF BLACK URBAN TERROR AT THE TIME.

IT CAN BOTH BE THE CASE THAT NEW YORK CITY WAS HISTORICALLY AND MYTHICALLY ROUGH AND THE SUBWAY WAS A FRIGHTENING PLACE AND THE FOUR INDIVIDUALS WHO GET SHOT WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS THEMSELVES DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE LETHAL FORCE USED AGAINST THEM.

IT IS JUST MORE COMPLICATED THAN NOBLE VIGILANTE AND VICIOUS VICTIMS AND MAYBE IT IS SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THE TWO BUT I JUST THINK IT IS VERY EASY FOR THE WORLD TO GET REDUCTIVE ABOUT VIRTUALLY EVERY STORY OR CASE WE GREW UP WITH.

>> AND YOU POINTED OUT NEW YORK HAS CHANGED.

THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED IN SOME RESPECTS.

THERE HAS BEEN AN AFRICAN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

THE CRIME RATE HAS FALLEN TO HISTORIC LOWS.

OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE IN A DIFFERENT POLITICAL MOMENT.

I WONDER AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ASKED GOETZ THIS QUESTION, HAS HE CHANGED?

>> OH, HE HAS NOT CHANGED.

AND IF ANYTHING, WE ALL HAVE ELDERLY RELATIVES THAT CALCIFY IN THEIR VIEWS OVER TIME.

I THINK.

AND, I THINK HE HAS GOTTEN EVEN MORE INDIGNANT ABOUT THE SHOOTING.

I ASKED HIM WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, DO YOU FEEL YOU COMMITTED AN ACT OF PUBLIC SERVICE?

SOUNDS LIKE YOU FEEL YOU DID SOMETHING GOOD.

AND HE SAYS THOSE GUYS NEEDED SHOOTING.

THAT IS NOT WHY I SHOT THEM.

BUT THEY NEEDED SHOOTING.

HE ALMOST SEEMS AN ADVOCATE FOR EUGENICS.

AND BELIEVING THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST SO IRREDEEMABLE THEY ARE NOT PART OF SOCIETY.

>> IT IS ALMOST TRAGIC.

>> IT IS VERY SHAKESPEAREAN.

THESE WERE ALL TRAGIC FIGURES.

IT IS ALL JUST DEEPLY TRAGIC.

>> ELLIOT WILLIAMS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> THANK YOU.